Minimum caliber for Samba in Victoria

[NickRigby]

I'm having trouble finding Vic Govt ballistics guidance on their minimum caliber for Sambar deer. I know it's common sense, and you just use enough gun. Usually mines a .308 or 9.3x62. However, the only guidance I can find on the regulation of "enough gun" is "minimum bore of .270", minimum projectile weight 130 gr", again, I know it's common sense, but if that's it, you could use a 30/30 quite legally, which I wouldn't recommend on larger deer. In fact, a 38 Special could pass that test. Is there no "and generates a minimum of xxxx ft lbs at xxx meters" ? Is there a web page or pamphlet I've missed ?

[Blackened]

You're not missing anything, it's just poorly constructed criteria, as you have pointed out.

A 30-30, by the word of the law, is equally appropriate as a 7mm Rem Mag.

In reality that obviously isn't the case, as the "smaller" 7mm carries twice the energy, and does so a lot further.

Regulations written by some bureaucrat who wouldn't know one cartridge from another and just assumed "a big bullet must be better", presumably.

[NickRigby]

Thanks Blackened

I also just noticed in their approved firearms it appears to approve a 20 gauge slug for Sambar !?
Why not just say any caliber which meets or exceeds the ballistics of (eg) .308 Win (by all means specify a minimum loading) It wouldn't make everyone happy but I get that when regulating something you do have to eventually draw an arbitrary line and stick to it, but having useful detail helps with compliance. Anyway I don't get the impression theirs any move to fix it.

[bladeracer]

Minimum caliber is .270' with a 130gn bullet from any cartridge at any velocity.

I'm having trouble finding Vic Govt ballistics guidance on their minimum caliber for Sambar deer. I know it's common sense, and you just use enough gun. Usually mines a .308 or 9.3x62. However, the only guidance I can find on the regulation of "enough gun" is "minimum bore of .270", minimum projectile weight 130 gr", again, I know it's common sense, but if that's it, you could use a 30/30 quite legally, which I wouldn't recommend on larger deer. In fact, a 38 Special could pass that test. Is there no "and generates a minimum of xxxx ft lbs at xxx meters" ? Is there a web page or pamphlet I've missed ?

[stihl88]

I'm having trouble finding Vic Govt ballistics guidance on their minimum caliber for Sambar deer. I know it's common sense, and you just use enough gun. Usually mines a .308 or 9.3x62. However, the only guidance I can find on the regulation of "enough gun" is "minimum bore of .270", minimum projectile weight 130 gr", again, I know it's common sense, but if that's it, you could use a 30/30 quite legally, which I wouldn't recommend on larger deer. In fact, a 38 Special could pass that test. Is there no "and generates a minimum of xxxx ft lbs at xxx meters" ? Is there a web page or pamphlet I've missed ?

We see this come up quite often, it is somewhat baffling when we look at some of the variables/outliers that haven't been considered in their decree.

Some consider 1000ft/lbs is plenty enough for effective kills others say approx 3x body weight of the deer.

A 140gr 30-30Win at 200yds has approx 1150ft/lb energy vs 175gr subsnoic load barely has 300ft/lbs of energy at the same distance yet both are legal to use on Sambar in Vic.

Would be great to see a guideline or standard created to establish a more humane approach, ideally it would cover ammo type and it's effective shot distance on target dependent on projectile weight and it's velocity at set distances, shot placement if a given.

[bladeracer]

We already have animal welfare laws that require us to kill animals as humanely as we possibly can.

Energy is not a great metric either as bullet design determines how much of that potential energy is dumped into the flesh and organs of the animal. If the bullet passes through then that energy is expended into whatever the bullet hits next, the tree or the hill side.

I'm having trouble finding Vic Govt ballistics guidance on their minimum caliber for Sambar deer. I know it's common sense, and you just use enough gun. Usually mines a .308 or 9.3x62. However, the only guidance I can find on the regulation of "enough gun" is "minimum bore of .270", minimum projectile weight 130 gr", again, I know it's common sense, but if that's it, you could use a 30/30 quite legally, which I wouldn't recommend on larger deer. In fact, a 38 Special could pass that test. Is there no "and generates a minimum of xxxx ft lbs at xxx meters" ? Is there a web page or pamphlet I've missed ?

We see this come up quite often, it is somewhat baffling when we look at some of the variables/outliers that haven't been considered in their decree.

Some consider 1000ft/lbs is plenty enough for effective kills others say approx 3x body weight of the deer.

A 140gr 30-30Win at 200yds has approx 1150ft/lb energy vs 175gr subsnoic load barely has 300ft/lbs of energy at the same distance yet both are legal to use on Sambar in Vic.

Would be great to see a guideline or standard created to establish a more humane approach, ideally it would cover ammo type and it's effective shot distance on target dependent on projectile weight and it's velocity at set distances, shot placement if a given.

[bigrich]

I'm having trouble finding Vic Govt ballistics guidance on their minimum caliber for Sambar deer. I know it's common sense, and you just use enough gun. Usually mines a .308 or 9.3x62. However, the only guidance I can find on the regulation of "enough gun" is "minimum bore of .270", minimum projectile weight 130 gr", again, I know it's common sense, but if that's it, you could use a 30/30 quite legally, which I wouldn't recommend on larger deer. In fact, a 38 Special could pass that test. Is there no "and generates a minimum of xxxx ft lbs at xxx meters" ? Is there a web page or pamphlet I've missed ?

mate , just use your 308 with a good 165gn, but 9.3x62 is much better IMHO . i used hand loads with 285gn round nose lapua "mega" projectiles on feral horses and donkeys and it flattened them . sambar is the ball park game weight that the 9.3x62 was designed for . enjoy

[stihl88]

We already have animal welfare laws that require us to kill animals as humanely as we possibly can.

Energy is not a great metric either as bullet design determines how much of that potential energy is dumped into the flesh and organs of the animal. If the bullet passes through then that energy is expended into whatever the bullet hits next, the tree or the hill side.

These laws are devoid of the anomolies mentioned and offer a general guide only and if we apply their minimum caliber table literally including these anomolies they are effectively permitting inhumane shooting standards.

An effective guideline would almost certainly cover projectile design and it's effect on target i.e FMJ vs Hollowpoint.

[Oldbloke]

I'm having trouble finding Vic Govt ballistics guidance on their minimum caliber for Sambar deer. I know it's common sense, and you just use enough gun. Usually mines a .308 or 9.3x62. However, the only guidance I can find on the regulation of "enough gun" is "minimum bore of .270", minimum projectile weight 130 gr", again, I know it's common sense, but if that's it, you could use a 30/30 quite legally, which I wouldn't recommend on larger deer. In fact, a 38 Special could pass that test. Is there no "and generates a minimum of xxxx ft lbs at xxx meters" ? Is there a web page or pamphlet I've missed ?

As stated poorly written. 2" minimum cartridge was also part of the criteria and that mesnt 30.30 was the effective minimum. And I think In close would be fine in good hands.
Unfortunately the 2" min was dropped afew years ago to allow the use of the short magnums. But as you say it also allows some pistol cartridges in.

Pretty sure the 1000lbs thing is a yank one. And initially about white tail deer which are a lot smaller than sambar. IMO 1500lbs is a more sensible guide for sambar. Keeping in mind a big mature stag isn't the same as a 1 yr old hind.

Yep, just use a 308 or equivalent or bigger.

Here are the current requirements.

Min Deer Cartridges New.JPG (78.3 KiB) Viewed 2334 times

Gee, I've posted that a few times.

[stihl88]

OP is using 308 already but is seeking further guideance on effective "xxxx ft lbs at xxx meters" which there is none as far as i'm aware.

Careful calling us all Yanks... Them fighting words!

[Oldbloke]

A long winded argument here,

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=17458

[stihl88]

NSW have the following CoP which starts to cover velocity and energy, for Sambar it starts at a minimum of;
- Calibre: .308
- Bullet Weight: 150gr
- Muzzle Energy: 2649 ft-lbs

NSW Code of Practice and Standard Operating Procedures for the Effective and Humane Management of Feral Deer.png (193.8 KiB) Viewed 2327 times

[No1Mk3]

Anyone thinking the 30/30 isn't very good for Sambar has never hunted with one. In my younger days I took several Sambar with mine, and also took a few Wapiti with it. The number of Reds is in double figures. As for energy levels, bollocks. As for energy levels, not anywhere near as important as many think. A well constructed bullet suitable for the purpose and "properly" placed will kill anything, just ask europeans who hunt Elk with the 6.5x55 or those like Pondoro Taylor, Karamojo Bell and even Selous himself who all used 6.5 Mannlicher on elephant admittedly they also used big bore guns but mostly settled on 7mm.

[Tomotron]

This is why muzzle energy at x metres/yards is a superior metric to calibre regarding ballistics, ethical shooting and legal requirements. Maybe something like a minimum of 1500 ft-lbf at 100 yards with 80 grain bullets for small deer and 2000 ft-lbf at 100 yards with 130 grain bullets for large deer. For instance, higher grain 6.5 Creed would meet these large deer requirements.
https://ammo.com/ballistics/6.5-creedmoor-ballistics

[stihl88]

Anyone thinking the 30/30 isn't very good for Sambar has never hunted with one. In my younger days I took several Sambar with mine, and also took a few Wapiti with it. The number of Reds is in double figures. As for energy levels, bollocks. As for energy levels, not anywhere near as important as many think. A well constructed bullet suitable for the purpose and "properly" placed will kill anything, just ask europeans who hunt Elk with the 6.5x55 or those like Pondoro Taylor, Karamojo Bell and even Selous himself who all used 6.5 Mannlicher on elephant admittedly they also used big bore guns but mostly settled on 7mm.

While shot placement and bullet construction are crucial, terminal ballistics is governed by more than just penetration, as kinetic energy, momentum, and bullet design collectively determine tissue disruption, hydrostatic shock, and cavitation efficiency factors that explain why lower-energy rounds like the .30-30 or 6.5 Mannlicher can be effective but lack the immediate hydrostatic incapacitation and margin for error provided by higher-energy cartridges, especially on large and resilient game like Sambar or Elk.

On the flip side, lower energy-high momentum driven projectiles like arrows (50ft/lbs) rely on deep, sustained penetration to cause fatal haemorrhaging, whereas high-energy bullets transfer force rapidly, creating greater tissue destruction and neural shock, making energy a critical factor in achieving faster, more humane kills.

In a nutshell
- .30-30: Lacks energy reserves for larger game, requiring precise shot placement.
- 6.5 Mannlicher: Better sectional density but still relies on perfect placement.
- Arrow: Lower energy-higher momentum and deep penetration but slower incapacitation.
- Higher-energy rounds provide greater hydrostatic shock and a margin for error in real-world hunting conditions.

[bigrich]

even on pigs 6.5 bore does not have the energy dump that a 308 or 30-06 do . i've loaded various 6.5's and meh, i'm over them . i want stuff that just works and has a bit more leeway with shot placement on running game . i've heard all the stories about 6.5's and 7's on elephant , those guys must've been very patient to wait for that perfect shot. just use enough gun and don't over analize things in my opinion . my earlier advice to the OP to continue with his 308 or preferably his 9.3 still stands

[bladeracer]

These laws are devoid of the anomolies mentioned and offer a general guide only and if we apply their minimum caliber table literally including these anomolies they are effectively permitting inhumane shooting standards.

An effective guideline would almost certainly cover projectile design and it's effect on target i.e FMJ vs Hollowpoint.

We already have an effective guideline, the Animal Welfare Act.
Use whatever cartridge you are confident will drop the target animal with the minimum of pain and ensure the quickest, most humane kill.

[bladeracer]

OP is using 308 already but is seeking further guidance on effective "xxxx ft lbs at xxx meters" which there is none as far as i'm aware.

Careful calling us all Yanks... Them fighting words!

The yanks also prefer to deliberately wound the animal so when it runs it leaves a blood trail to follow, after you've waited for the animal to stop somewhere, and hopefully die.

[bladeracer]

Anyone thinking the 30/30 isn't very good for Sambar has never hunted with one. In my younger days I took several Sambar with mine, and also took a few Wapiti with it. The number of Reds is in double figures. As for energy levels, bollocks. As for energy levels, not anywhere near as important as many think. A well constructed bullet suitable for the purpose and "properly" placed will kill anything, just ask europeans who hunt Elk with the 6.5x55 or those like Pondoro Taylor, Karamojo Bell and even Selous himself who all used 6.5 Mannlicher on elephant admittedly they also used big bore guns but mostly settled on 7mm.

I bought my 1894 .30-30 from a deer hunter.

[bladeracer]

This is why muzzle energy at x metres/yards is a superior metric to calibre regarding ballistics, ethical shooting and legal requirements. Maybe something like a minimum of 1500 ft-lbf at 100 yards with 80 grain bullets for small deer and 2000 ft-lbf at 100 yards with 130 grain bullets for large deer. For instance, higher grain 6.5 Creed would meet these large deer requirements.
https://ammo.com/ballistics/6.5-creedmoor-ballistics

Energy is not a useful metric unless it is tied to a specific bullet design. A steel-penetrator FMJ of the same weight as a lightly-constructed polymer-tipped varmint bullet, and a soft point bonded-jacket bullet with a huge metplat will all have the same energy, but will perform very differently at the target.

The only way to write a regulation that specifies the cartridge that would actually work, and be enforceable, would be something like "All sambar deer must be taken with a .30-06 rifle with a minimum 22" barrel using factory 168gn Accubond ammunition produced by Nosler Bullets - part #60102 at no further than 300m, which must be directed into the chest cavity within 120mm of the heart, such that it destroys the heart and lungs, or into the brain cavity such that it destroys the brain, or into the cervical spine such that it destroys the central nervous system."

The animal welfare regulations do a much better job, we must do whatever we have to do to ensure the animal is killed humanely - done.

[bladeracer]

even on pigs 6.5 bore does not have the energy dump that a 308 or 30-06 do . i've loaded various 6.5's and meh, i'm over them . i want stuff that just works and has a bit more leeway with shot placement on running game . i've heard all the stories about 6.5's and 7's on elephant , those guys must've been very patient to wait for that perfect shot. just use enough gun and don't over analyse things in my opinion . my earlier advice to the OP to continue with his 308 or preferably his 9.3 still stands

I think the size of the hole plays a significant role in effectiveness as well. I think somewhere around the .357"/9mm region the hole is large enough that it can't contract closed from muscle spasm or the self-healing effect of the flesh. Small entry holes don't always leak very much. Poke a .45-caliber hole through something and I would expect it to be very effective, even if it's not moving all that fast.

[stihl88]

These laws are devoid of the anomolies mentioned and offer a general guide only and if we apply their minimum caliber table literally including these anomolies they are effectively permitting inhumane shooting standards.

An effective guideline would almost certainly cover projectile design and it's effect on target i.e FMJ vs Hollowpoint.

We already have an effective guideline, the Animal Welfare Act.
Use whatever cartridge you are confident will drop the target animal with the minimum of pain and ensure the quickest, most humane kill.

You mean the the POCTA Act? It doesn't mention an iota of the word firearm or anything related to it.

It's objective is to provide for procedures conducted on animals, devices used on animals, implements and methods of capture of animals, transport of animals, restraint of animals and other related matters; and doesn't clear up the anomolies or questions posed by the OP.

Yes, the simple answer is shoot them with whatever the table allows for and you will be legally clear, your consience might not be.

The NSW chart, on the other hand, takes a more practical, common sense approach, going further to eliminate these inconsistencies.

[stihl88]

OP is using 308 already but is seeking further guidance on effective "xxxx ft lbs at xxx meters" which there is none as far as i'm aware.

Careful calling us all Yanks... Them fighting words!

The yanks also prefer to deliberately wound the animal so when it runs it leaves a blood trail to follow, after you've waited for the animal to stop somewhere, and hopefully die.

Yes a common trait of the Northern Yellowbelly Yanks

[Oldbloke]

NSW have the following CoP which starts to cover velocity and energy, for Sambar it starts at a minimum of;
- Calibre: .308
- Bullet Weight: 150gr
- Muzzle Energy: 2649 ft-lbs

NSW Code of Practice and Standard Operating Procedures for the Effective and Humane Management of Feral Deer.png

That's a good guide.
I think 200 yards enough too. Abt 90% of sambar are shot under 100yards in Vic btw.

[bladeracer]

You mean the the POCTA Act? It doesn't mention an iota of the word firearm or anything related to it.

It's objective is to provide for procedures conducted on animals, devices used on animals, implements and methods of capture of animals, transport of animals, restraint of animals and other related matters; and doesn't clear up the anomolies or questions posed by the OP.

Yes, the simple answer is shoot them with whatever the table allows for and you will be legally clear, your consience might not be.

The NSW chart, on the other hand, takes a more practical, common sense approach, going further to eliminate these inconsistencies.

It doesn't need to mention firearm or any other device. If a firearm is not the most humane way to kill the animal then don't use one, it is then use the right one.

The NEW chart as far as I was aware is not a Code of Practice or legislation, it was just a recommendation last time I looked at it.

[Oldbloke]

You mean the the POCTA Act? It doesn't mention an iota of the word firearm or anything related to it.

It's objective is to provide for procedures conducted on animals, devices used on animals, implements and methods of capture of animals, transport of animals, restraint of animals and other related matters; and doesn't clear up the anomolies or questions posed by the OP.

Yes, the simple answer is shoot them with whatever the table allows for and you will be legally clear, your consience might not be.

The NSW chart, on the other hand, takes a more practical, common sense approach, going further to eliminate these inconsistencies.

It doesn't need to mention firearm or any other device. If a firearm is not the most humane way to kill the animal then don't use one, it is then use the right one.

The NEW chart as far as I was aware is not a Code of Practice or legislation, it was just a recommendation last time I looked at it.

Which state?

[stihl88]

You mean the the POCTA Act? It doesn't mention an iota of the word firearm or anything related to it.

It's objective is to provide for procedures conducted on animals, devices used on animals, implements and methods of capture of animals, transport of animals, restraint of animals and other related matters; and doesn't clear up the anomolies or questions posed by the OP.

Yes, the simple answer is shoot them with whatever the table allows for and you will be legally clear, your consience might not be.

The NSW chart, on the other hand, takes a more practical, common sense approach, going further to eliminate these inconsistencies.

It doesn't need to mention firearm or any other device. If a firearm is not the most humane way to kill the animal then don't use one, it is then use the right one.

The NEW chart as far as I was aware is not a Code of Practice or legislation, it was just a recommendation last time I looked at it.

It is a CoP "NSW Code of Practice and Standard Operating Procedures for the Effective and Humane Management of Feral Deer"

[Oldbloke]

The Victorian one is regulated. The set of tables/chart is only how the GMA present it so it's easy to understand.

[stihl88]

The Victorian one is regulated. The set of tables/chart is only how the GMA present it so it's easy to understand.

The GMA simply refer to it from the Wildlife Game Regs 2012.

[bladeracer]

I wonder when that changed, must be recent.

You mean the the POCTA Act? It doesn't mention an iota of the word firearm or anything related to it.

It's objective is to provide for procedures conducted on animals, devices used on animals, implements and methods of capture of animals, transport of animals, restraint of animals and other related matters; and doesn't clear up the anomolies or questions posed by the OP.

Yes, the simple answer is shoot them with whatever the table allows for and you will be legally clear, your consience might not be.

The NSW chart, on the other hand, takes a more practical, common sense approach, going further to eliminate these inconsistencies.

It doesn't need to mention firearm or any other device. If a firearm is not the most humane way to kill the animal then don't use one, it is then use the right one.

The NEW chart as far as I was aware is not a Code of Practice or legislation, it was just a recommendation last time I looked at it.

It is a CoP "NSW Code of Practice and Standard Operating Procedures for the Effective and Humane Management of Feral Deer"