My reloading journey..

[Oldbloke]

https://www.mytargets.com/

[jezzab]

Thought I would try loading some heavier .223 rounds this arvo. I had some Sierra 69gr TMK and some Hornady 75gr ELDM.

The Sierra's seemed to go well but the 75gr bullets weren't good. I only did one and noticed it was way too far in (I could see the gap at the case mouth) for ADIs suggested COAL of 2.250".

I don't have the tool to measure 100% but taking a few measurements with the verniers and eyeballing a few things, it would have to be 0.100-0.110 too deep if you want to keep the land all touching the case neck.

What's the go there? Is this the point you would go your own and start pulling it out more increasing the COAL and playing with powders with the extra room to get your desired result? I assume this would also jump it into the rifling

Too advanced for me yet and I shelved the idea but I am curious

[Oldbloke]

Are you saying you have seated the bullet 0.100-0.110 too deep?

[bladeracer]

Yes, that is a problem with VLD/ELD bullets when you have to seat them to AR mag length. If you can feed longer rounds through the magazine and action then do so, it gives you more case volume for powder and reduces pressure.

Thought I would try loading some heavier .223 rounds this arvo. I had some Sierra 69gr TMK and some Hornady 75gr ELDM.

The Sierra's seemed to go well but the 75gr bullets weren't good. I only did one and noticed it was way too far in (I could see the gap at the case mouth) for ADIs suggested COAL of 2.250".

I don't have the tool to measure 100% but taking a few measurements with the verniers and eyeballing a few things, it would have to be 0.100-0.110 too deep if you want to keep the land all touching the case neck.

What's the go there? Is this the point you would go your own and start pulling it out more increasing the COAL and playing with powders with the extra room to get your desired result? I assume this would also jump it into the rifling

Too advanced for me yet and I shelved the idea but I am curious

[Wapiti]

That's the problem with some rifles with box mags.
I do not ever get excited with AR mags in bolt actions. Can't get the projies in too many examples to just miss the rifling by 10-20 thou and fit in the mags.
AR mags are for ARs, but I can see why it excites some people.
I was at first concerned about Howa Minis too, with their short mags, but they are smart buggers , Howa, and my two examples here have short throats and it's p*ss easy.
Only dramas are when using anything heavier than 60gn, they intrude too far into the case when seated to 10' off the lands.
In my situation though, because I don't consider this cartridge adequate for anything but small pests, and don't shoot competition, 60gns is perfect.

[jezzab]

Think I have used the wrong terminology for the flat side of the bullet, apparently its Bearing Surface (not lands)?

Anyway, I seated the bullet to the COAL of 2.250" as per ADI load info and it was like this (excuse the quick Photoshop)
The case neck is only just sealing on the bearing surface because its in too deep

bullet.jpg (21.39 KiB) Viewed 1015 times

[jezzab]

Are you saying you have seated the bullet 0.100-0.110 too deep?

I guess so yeah, but I used the infomation that was provided?

[jezzab]

Yes, that is a problem with VLD/ELD bullets when you have to seat them to AR mag length. If you can feed longer rounds through the magazine and action then do so, it gives you more case volume for powder and reduces pressure

Ok cool, I was on the right track somewhat. So how would you decide the maximum depth you would seat the bullet (assuming you could feed longer ones)? Down until just before it wouldnt seal on the whole neck anymore?

[Oldbloke]

Think I have used the wrong terminology for the flat side of the bullet, apparently its Bearing Surface (not lands)?

Anyway, I seated the bullet to the COAL of 2.250" as per ADI load info and it was like this (excuse the quick Photoshop)
The case neck is only just sealing on the bearing surface because its in too deep

bullet.jpg

Now I understand.
Long bullet
Short magazine.

Data provided is designed to fit all rifles and magazines.

Generally, the bullet orgave (the curved bit) 0.5mm (0.020") off the lands is a good place to be. Sometimes call "the jump".

You need to:
Determine the OAL when bullet is just touching the lands.
Then seat bullet 0.5mm deeper.
Then check it fits the magazine and feeds ok.
If it's too long, obviously you will need to seat bullet a bit deeper.

There are a few ways to find the lands. (Just touching)

This is how I now do it:
Note, you need to remove the firing pin.

The idea is to continue untill the bolt closes with gravity alone.

Take a sized case that chambers freely. (Not tight)
Seat a bullet a little long.
If it's tight - remove and seat bullet a further .005" .
Repeat each time, until the bolt eventually closes under gravity.
Measure and record the OAL.

Now when loading seat a further 0.020 " (0.5mm)

It's a bit slow but IMO most reliable.

[bladeracer]

The risk with this situation is the bullet can get pushed back into case during feeding, especially if you have a double-feed.

Think I have used the wrong terminology for the flat side of the bullet, apparently its Bearing Surface (not lands)?

Anyway, I seated the bullet to the COAL of 2.250" as per ADI load info and it was like this (excuse the quick Photoshop)
The case neck is only just sealing on the bearing surface because its in too deep

bullet.jpg

[bladeracer]

I seat the 80gn ELDM at 2.450" but I'm using AICS mags. If you want to use long bullets but have a short magazine you will have to single-load them directly into the chamber.

First thing you need to do is determine the maximum length you can load them. Drop a rod down the bore so it rests against the bolt face (with the striker cocked). Mark the rod at the muzzle with a piece of tape. Put the bullet you want to use into the throat and hold it against the lands with a pencil or something. Put the rod back down the bore so it rests on the point of the bullet (you need a rod with a flat end - you can order 5mm brass rod online). Mark it at the muzzle with tape again. Measure between the two pieces of tape and this is the maximum possible length you can load that bullet. Deduct .010" or .020" and load them to that length.

Loading as long as possible gives you the maximum case volume for powder and reduces pressure so you get the best potential out of the cartridge.

Yes, that is a problem with VLD/ELD bullets when you have to seat them to AR mag length. If you can feed longer rounds through the magazine and action then do so, it gives you more case volume for powder and reduces pressure

Ok cool, I was on the right track somewhat. So how would you decide the maximum depth you would seat the bullet (assuming you could feed longer ones)? Down until just before it wouldnt seal on the whole neck anymore?

[Wapiti]

There are special tools that are super easy to use, and way more accurate than the rod method. Marking rods at muzzle length is just as variable as it sounds, and the crudest method but one that will definitely give you a starting point.
The starting point is just a number, which is a datum you can work from. But then you will need the gauge that drops over the bullet, and good calipers, to record the dimension for repeatability for using any other projectile after that.
.
Hornady make a very simple one and cheap, and one you can use for any calibre. They can be used in conjunction with shoulder bump gauges, which are the only way to set up a full length die properly.

[jezzab]

Awesome info, thank you both! Ill do the measurements so I have them for the future

I do actually have a Waters Rifleman mag for my Tikka T3x .223, which I believe will take up to 2.400" OAL

[jezzab]

There are special tools that are super easy to use, and way more accurate than the rod method. Marking rods at muzzle length is just as variable as it sounds, and the crudest method but one that will definitely give you a starting point.
The starting point is just a number, which is a datum you can work from. But then you will need the gauge that drops over the bullet, and good calipers, to record the dimension for repeatability for using any other projectile after that.
.
Hornady make a very simple one and cheap, and one you can use for any calibre. They can be used in conjunction with shoulder bump gauges, which are the only way to set up a full length die properly.

Oh awesome, ill check it out

[Oldbloke]

Oops, forgot to mention.
If your measuring OAL front the tip of the bullet keep in mind some vary in length a lot.

I measured a few samples of 3 diff bullets a while back. 3 were very consistant and within about 0.003". But one bullets had a vaiation of abt 0.010" IIRC.

To improve on that I made a bullet comparator. A copy of a bought one.
There are a few ways to do it tho.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13453

[jezzab]

Ordered the Hornady OAL gauge, modded .223 and 7mm-08 cases for it, .224 and .284 bullet comparators and headspace bushings.
Should be set now I hope

[on_one_wheel]

I'm not sure if I've missed something on this thread like weather or not you have a magazine that is limiting your seating depth, however...

Seating your projectiles to SSAMI tolerances is a great way to avoid getting the most out of your reloads.

More often that not its possible to seat projectiles much closer to the lands.

The SSAMI standards were developed to ensure theres a one size fits all aproach between rifle and ammo manufacturers.

Personally if I were loading competition style projectiles for target shooting and seating them close to the lands meant they wouldn't fit my mag, I'd be single loading those cartridges and developing something else that fits for hunting.

[OyKurwa]

I'll throw in a tidbit too since I noticed you mentioned Hornady a lot.

Horandy load data is extremely conservative. Like for example Varget and 2208 are basically equivalent. Check out Hornady Varget data vs ADI 2208 data for a given loading and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Like off top of my head, for 150gr 308 the ADI data goes a whole 2 grains higher than the Hornady data.

[on_one_wheel]

I reckon it's fair to say all reloading guidelines are conservative across the board for the sake of liability and safety.

Iv managed to load some blistering hot loads well over recommended "max" without showing any measurable signs of case head expansion.

[Wapiti]

Oops, forgot to mention.
If your measuring OAL front the tip of the bullet keep in mind some vary in length a lot.

I measured a few samples of 3 diff bullets a while back. 3 were very consistant and within about 0.003". But one bullets had a vaiation of abt 0.010" IIRC.

To improve on that I made a bullet comparator. A copy of a bought one.
There are a few ways to do it tho.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13453

So True, NEVER (if you want consistency, which is how you get accuracy i.e. smallest groups without effort) measure OAL from the bullet tip.
Old mate is spot on, bullets vary in length from the tip to the base.
They even vary in length slightly from the point your bullet comparator gauge sits on the ogive when you measure them properly using that tool.
But that doesn't matter a toss, as because your bullet clearance from the lands will be exactly the same each cartridge despite this.
Hornady sells them as a kit that has the most popular cals in it, well worth getting actually. Very accurate and even though I can make anything on a lathe, no way is my time and the material needed as cheap as these kits.

Same as the Sinclair shoulder gauges, you use them very similar to the bullet comparators.

[Oldbloke]

Ordered the Hornady OAL gauge, modded .223 and 7mm-08 cases for it, .224 and .284 bullet comparators and headspace bushings.
Should be set now I hope

I believe these are a good thing

[Wapiti]

Ordered the Hornady OAL gauge, modded .223 and 7mm-08 cases for it, .224 and .284 bullet comparators and headspace bushings.
Should be set now I hope

I believe these are a good thing

Mate they're foolproof.
Hornady's accuracy gear is excellent and very affordable. They've really stepped up.

[scoot]

https://www.derraco.com/product/derraco ... ide-promo/
These sets i personally believe are better than the hornady set, and cheaper....

[Jorlcrin]

https://www.derraco.com/product/derraco-bullet-comparator-set-pre-order-link-90-posted-aus-wide-promo/
These sets i personally believe are better than the hornady set, and cheaper....

Nice looking set!

I ordered one, because I think you might be right.

[jezzab]

Finally had a chance to have a look at the OAL gauge and the camparators. Wow they changed the game and everything you guys have been talking about makes sense to me now.

I made some 75gr .223 rounds and everything lined up as it should, also realised my WR mag only takes up to 2.400" COAL and mine were 2.425" but no biggy, ill just single load them. One thing I did notice though was the variation when measuring base to ogive after having them on the gauge, there was quite a large variance in a few (up to 0.040"), I just used the ones that were around the same ballpark and averaged them. The other grain and caliber bullets were pretty consistant.

Checked the 20x 55gr .223 rounds I had made previously and realized they were completely wrong and would have been jammed into the rifling by 0.060" (if you could get one in). Little push down and they are good now. Made some new 7mm-08 120gr rounds too.

I've been aiming for 0.020" jump which seems to be a common starting point. I checked my other 7mm-08 rounds I had made previously (my first 139gr ones) and they have a big jump of 0.078", not sure if I should just leave them or pull the bullets and start again

[Oldbloke]

Finally had a chance to have a look at the OAL gauge and the camparators. Wow they changed the game and everything you guys have been talking about makes sense to me now.

I made some 75gr .223 rounds and everything lined up as it should, also realised my WR mag only takes up to 2.400" COAL and mine were 2.425" but no biggy, ill just single load them. One thing I did notice though was the variation when measuring base to ogive after having them on the gauge, there was quite a large variance in a few (up to 0.040"), I just used the ones that were around the same ballpark and averaged them. The other grain and caliber bullets were pretty consistant.

Checked the 20x 55gr .223 rounds I had made previously and realized they were completely wrong and would have been jammed into the rifling by 0.060" (if you could get one in). Little push down and they are good now. Made some new 7mm-08 120gr rounds too.

I've been aiming for 0.020" jump which seems to be a common starting point. I checked my other 7mm-08 rounds I had made previously (my first 139gr ones) and they have a big jump of 0.078", not sure if I should just leave them or pull the bullets and start again

Yes, 0.020" is a common theme. My 3 centre fires are that and shoot well. My understanding is "generally" closer to lands is better, but each combination is different. Some do shoot well with fairly big jumps. If you move very close to lands you need to be very sure you measuring gear and you is up to it.


"jump of 0.078", that's a lot, I would start again.

I bought some cheap .308 bullets a while back. Jump will be a lot (IIRC about 0.045" ) Due to orgave shape. I've only completed basic testing and although they won't be world beaters they will be ok for my hunting at close ish ranges.

"
measuring base to ogive after having them on the gauge, there was quite a large variance in a few (up to 0.040"),"
I assume that's not all out the same box?


You just have to experiment if they won't shoot.

[jezzab]

They were from the same box. Hornady 75gr ELD Match. I checked them over and over again to make sure and always came up with the same measurements.

I'll pull the big jump 7mm-08 bullets and start again. Live and learn

[Oldbloke]

They were from the same box. Hornady 75gr ELD Match. I checked them over and over again to make sure and always came up with the same measurements.

I'll pull the big jump 7mm-08 bullets and start again. Live and learn

Im very surprised. You have inspired me to measure a few tonight. This could get very interesting.


Don't worry, I'm still learning. I guess that's one of the things I like about reloading.

[jezzab]

Just so I'm not explaining incorrectly. I have the Hornady OAL gauge and the Hornady Comparator (.223 and 7mm-08).
I had the modified case on the OAL gauge. Would slide it into the chamber with the bullet backed out a bit ie "seated" too deep.
Lightly apply pressure (consistent and repeatable pressure) each time I did it to the main stick to keep the case chambered, loosen the set screw and very gently slide the centre slide up until the projectile stopped and then locked the set screw. Then I would measure from BTO (Bottom to Ogive).

The most consistent ones were the Hornady 7mm-08 120gr VMAX, they were +-0.001"
The 69gr Sierra TMK were +-0.008"
And the 75gr Hornady ELD Match were:

1.874"
1.878"
1.838"
1.877"
1.850"
1.884"

There was another in the 1.87X" range I didn't write down, averaged them and and just used those 4 with the average BTO for the seating depth (minus 20.thou)

I ran em all again multiple times of the same one and then alternating and come back to check again

I really don't feel I screwed up the measurements, I feel am quiet capable with my digital verniers and have used them for years (ex engine builder, machining) plus cross checking and then checking previously measured results. But hey. I'm human

Anyway, I dunno. Weird. If I can batch them in the future, that's cool but match projectiles I figured would be the ducks nuts and always spot on but I've never used any until now (nor knew how to check) so I have no idea. Maybe I just got a bad batch

PS I also applied the same pressure on the verniers.and repeated to pass any "soft".outside. same as I would do a main bearing journal, wrist.pin etc. also remembering it's brass

[Oldbloke]

I just measured 4 different bullets. 5 of each.
Worst was about 0.004"

IMG_20250310_185431.jpg (176.29 KiB) Viewed 401 times

Just using my DIY comparator.
Experience tells me it's repeatable within abt 0.002"

I use same for both measurements