Projectile indentations

[madang55]

223R 69g TMK. Book says COL 2.235". 25gr AR2206H. So far, so good, however, seating these javelins causes the seating stem to dent (circular around the tip) the projectile. I have 2 different RCBS die sets so I changed out the stems, but the dent still occurs, albeit a mm or 2 higher. I even have a graphite/lead shot mix and coated the inside of the necks. I reload 6.5 creed and those die sets come with different seating stems (Hornady) for different shapes of proj. but not my 223R sets. Seems the proj. themselves are very soft on the ends?

[jezzab]

I use these exact projectiles in my 223 and the same happens on mine. Apparently its just the shape of the cup in the bullet seater and it should be a different one suited to the longer ogive but I couldnt find one for my Hornady anywhere. I thought about widening the cup out a bit but decided not to in the end because I wasnt sure if it would cause problems on other projectiles that are fine

By what i've read it doesnt effect anything (other than my OCD)

69TMK.jpg (720.21 KiB) Viewed 8598 times

[madang55]

I'm tempted to tempt fate and see if I can expand one of the stems. I have 2 and can always get another...maybe

[jezzab]

I was wondering if the Hornady custom die 22 Cal .224" 75/80/88/90 gr. Part: 397100 would work

EDIT: Stuff it, i orderd one. Worst case I can butcher it

[Wapiti]

You don't need to order anything, you can just polish out the internal chamfer in the seating stem to better match the typical projectile ogive, with a pointed diamond burr or a mild steel pin coated in valve grinding paste.

Try doing a test with/without these compression marks, they do absolutely nothing to your groups or results on game.

I get these indentations on all sizes of projectiles, for me they are particularly deep on Nosler Ballistic Tips which are quite soft, and very noticeable when
forcing a projectile to pack down powder when using compressed loads.

[madang55]

I will try that. Seems general consensus is the indentations don't effect much

[deye243]

You blokes must be running a hell of a lot of neck tension

[Wapiti]

My target rounds are running 2 thou tension, and my paddock loads run 3 thou.
Autoloaders will always get a crimp as well, but that doesn't mean anything when seating prior over this interference.

I have found that a given group on 2 thou can tighten markedly with 3 thou interference fit. At these tensions, which are completely acceptable and certainly not excessive whatsoever, I will get these rings when compressing powder.
In fact, when doing rushed inconsistent loads that result from conventional dies, I even get these rings in the described circumstances.

Obviously you cannot use conventional dies to do this, ever, and people not using bushing dies and measuring neck thickness/bullet diameter combinations would never, ever, know their neck tension of their handloads or even try and play with it. Or know the benefits of it.

With so many different bullet ogives out there, experienced loaders will certainly strike a seating stem with a sharp chamfer-ring cut in it which will mark projies in this way. By rounding/smoothing out this mass-production edge, you can stop it happening in most instances.

[madang55]

Ok

[jezzab]

New blokes must be running a hell of a lot of neck tension

I'll bite.

What is the right Neck 'tension'?

Can you explain to me how the differential between the case neck internal diameter and the projectile width converts to force ie Newtons, Pounds, Kilograms, whatever unit blows your hair back. Is there a formula for this?

If so, does the formula include the metallurgy of both and their state (work hardened, annealed, tempered, etc). Does it incude temp and rates of expansion via temp at the time of the measurement? I mean the case is thinner BUT it's is touching the projectile so is it the same expansion when the measurement was taken. It include seating depth? If you left a little case lube on the neck? This all obviously effects how much pressure it takes for the case pressure to push the projectile from the case. But how much of the variables effect the accuracy?

Anyway, whatever

[jezzab]

You don't need to order anything, you can just polish out the internal chamfer in the seating stem to better match the typical projectile ogive, with a pointed diamond burr or a mild steel pin coated in valve grinding paste.

Try doing a test with/without these compression marks, they do absolutely nothing to your groups or results on game.

I get these indentations on all sizes of projectiles, for me they are particularly deep on Nosler Ballistic Tips which are quite soft, and very noticeable when
forcing a projectile to pack down powder when using compressed loads.

Thanks mate, solid advice. I'll give it a whirl, makes sense. Either way they grouped perfectly anyway. It's just personal cosmetic thing

[Wapiti]

This will take some attention span to get my ramblings here, but if someone who is interested gets some improvement, it's worth it.

Neck tension - it's the thing that grips the bullet in the case.
On standard everyday dies, when you size the case, it's sized a fair bit unnecessarily undersized, to allow for so many different brands of cases that can all have different neck thicknesses of brass and hardness levels. Then on the upstroke of the handle, an "expander ball" is dragged through the case to open them all up to a consistent inner diameter.

Two things wrong with this, if not more than messy neck lubing:
The inner diameter is not consistent, or even central to the case centreline because of the difference in individual case neck thickness on one side, and brass tension from working the brass a few times. "Springback" and therefore grip tension, will vary between cases even in the same lot, number of times fired etc.
2nd big one is that because the case is a sloppy fit in the standard die, and it can be anywhere in the shellholder in/out, that when you pull the shell back out through the expander ball, the case is always pulled out of straight from the neck.

Easily test this by getting a good ground steel V-Block from ebay and a dial indicator, or even a Hornady bullet run-out set, and spin the loaded round in the Vee with the pointer on the end of the seated bullet and watch the dial spin.
This run-out causes the bullet to hit the rifling on that angle and continue out of the barrel with that inherent wobble, spinning not on it's centreline. That opens up your groups, ever wondered about those strange "fliers"?
Set aside those rounds that are really out of straight and shoot them as a test... watch how they throw a big group.

I use Redding Competition Bushing Dies for all my reloading, have for 15 years or more.
The neck die uses interchangeable carbide inserts to size the neck down to exactly where you want it, and the dies have a spring-loaded chamber in them that is chambered exactly like your rifle's chamber - it completely supports the case in a straight line into the die, there is no expander ball to pull the case through and drag it off-line, and you don't use any lube. The amount you size down the neck to is adjustable via a micrometer dial on top.
The full-length die does not size the neck, only the body from the shoulder down, allowing you to set your neck tension using the die above in a separate step.
The bullet seating die has the chamber in it also, guiding the case into the bullet exactly straight, the depth of which is adjustable via a micrometer on top, easily changeable to whatever thous of depth you are experimenting with.

How you measure what neck tension you desire to get a consistent result:
Keep all your cases together in batches of how-many-times-fired and don't mix them up - each time fired and resized works the brass changes the hardness and we need it as consistent as possible.
Measure a loaded cartridge at the neck with a micrometer at a few points around the neck.
1. Take that measurement (for example in this case, a 300WM loaded with 178gn bullet I want to try). It measures .3380" average. Some spots .3385, some 3380. Pick the lowest dimension.
Consistency in this dimension can be made exact by cleaning up the necks - turning them - but this is completely unnecessary from my testing over all the years. Ignore it is my advice. Main thing is the bullet grip is totally consistent, and the cartridge loaded is completely straight so the bullet is presented into the rifling exactly on centreline.
2. Take that dimension of .3380 and deduct the grip or tension you want, in my case I'll pick 3 thou or .003". So the dimension is .335"
I will pick a carbide neck insert marked .335 and set it into the neck die and size the case.
This gives us a "number" that we can repeat each round we load, and this number is a grip or interference fit on the bullet of .003" grip, or spring, holding the projectiles in my loaded rounds as close to exactly the same each cartridge.
The recommendation for target bullets is .002" interference fit; you can experiment. Hunting rounds I like .003, grip more because when ramming a cartridge into the chamber, or a semi-auto, they get a hard time going in.
3. Remember, having every cartridge exactly straight so the bullet does not wobble off it's centreline even slightly, and the neck gripping the bullet the same to allow ignition of the powder charge to happen exactly the same pressure wave each time, makes for consistency at the target.
4. Put cartridges loaded in this way in your "Vee" block and see the improvement! And on your target.

Benchrest shooters use very simple "inline dies" to do the same thing, made exactly to their case neck thickness and brass used. The dies I use above are infinitely adjustable to use anything to get the same results. You won't catch benchresters using standard dies.

Some people would say, this is all BS and unnecessary, well fair enough. Once you have done this and seen the improvements, you will decide for yourself.
It takes no more trouble, and from the results I get I will not go back.
To those out there using these dies, if I've missed something, feel free to correct me here.

[madang55]

Whilst I am not a bench rest comp shooter, this was definitely worth reading and I will probably print it out. As for the Redding dies, they may have to wait a while. My main issue is ugly projectiles after seating. Im going to try brushing the necks and dusting with graphite, then paying some attention to the seating stem. Cheers

[madang55]

Widened the stem, polished the stem brushed the inside of the case necks, graphite lubes the inside of the case necks. The 69g TMK are the only problem . Last resort will be to see which powder takes up the least volume. I think because the 69g TMK is so long, it's compressing the medium amount of 2206H and therefore the indents in the soft proj.

[Wapiti]

If you ever decide to go that step in really refining your reloaded ammo over factory ammo grade, you will need the bushings for the necks too.
The dies don't come with them because of the wildly varying neck thicknesses of every different brand of case in a given calibre. They are all different.

Say you've got a .308 - you'd measure the diameter of your complete reloads or factory ammo of a given brand of case. Measure a good selection and use that number as I mentioned in a post above.
Say it's .336" diameter of the loaded cartridges at the neck - so you'd deduct 002 and 003 and buy those two carbide neck bushings with your new die set.
After awhile you'll end up with quite a few.

Issue with this gear is it can be difficult to get in Australia - we used to but it straight from the 'States. BRT used to sell the best gear locally, but they closed. Buying quality costs money and there has always been the cost of living to worry about, as well as people not seeing the true value in this and other, stuff.

Fact is, that you cannot make ammo any better than factory ammo other than probably more accurately getting powder weights perfectly consistent, and mixing and matching components more easily.
The standard dies most people buy will, in my experiments anyway, usually in normal use make ammo that's got more accuracy-robbing run-out and neck tension inconsistency than factory ammo has. You will never know that until you have the gear to measure and test what difference it all makes.
The sad thing is that so many people will despise you for even mentioning this and refuse to believe it or tell you it's BS without ever having raised the bar. This is why this gear exists, and more die makers are starting to bring dies out for people who actually want better consistent ammo.
Consistency - everything exactly the same from shot to shot, without it the best something will produce is out of reach and unknown.

[madang55]

OK, say I've got a Howa 223, fluted 22? inch barrel that shoots 55Gr Supa Roos in a nasty little 1/2-3/4" group at 100yds. I can load those up to my hearts content. Usually about 150 at a time. Same dies, same press, etc, etc, etc. Not an indentation EVER. Say I was told by a reliable source that trying the 69Gr TMK's would be a good idea to try. Same dies, same press, yada yada. Now I get indentations, and steam out of the ears. Same case preparation, cleaning, annealing, sizing, trimming and chamfering. The only explanation I can now arrive at is that when seating these much longer proj, (book says 2.235) I am compressing the powder to a point that somethings gotta give, and its the proj. I have experienced this compression with other calibre loading, however what gave way was the case itself. That problem was cured by using a different powder having a lesser volume. At the moment its 2206H, so I will try a couple of the others. Oh, and not being a Bench Rest shooter, I have no need for the expense of the other fancy stuff.

[No1_49er]

Have you tried seating a projectile (of the type with which you experience indentations) WITHOUT powder. That will establish with certainty whether or not you are compressing the powder.
If you get indentations WITHOUT powder, then it's to do with the shape of the ogive not matching the seater die.
If not, then you're probably compressing the powder. Is that really a good idea, or even necessary?

[madang55]

Working on that one. Do I want a compressed load in a 1:8 barrel when the data is for a 1:12? Not really.

[bigrich]

You blokes must be running a hell of a lot of neck tension

it'd be my guess the loads are compressed and the projectiles are marked cause of the amount of pressure on them when seating to get the COL right . that's the only time i've gotten indents on my projectiles , not as bad as in the pics but . a nice accuracy load for my 12 twist 223 tikka is a 55 vmax with 25.3gn of 2206h in adi brass , and if memory serves me right it's slightly crunchy when seating . try to squeeze a looong 69 gn projectile on top of 25gn and i'd guess it's compressed .

but i could be wrong ....

edit- re the COL the op listed. i just looked at my current sierra book and the COL given for sierra 69gn TMK ( part No-7169) is 2.260" . so the COL being used is definitely too short resulting in a compressed load . hope this helps , cheers

[madang55]

Thee be correct. 22gr of 8208 works fine. Just have to see it down range

[saljer]

Contact Sierra, tell them about the ring implant. What do they recommend.

[bigrich]

Contact Sierra, tell them about the ring implant. What do they recommend.

he's been seating the 69gn tmk 25 thou shorter than what my sierra 11 load manual says . not sure on where exactly he got the COL length from .
however my ADI load data 9 book says 2.235" for a sierra 69gn HPBT in 223 , as the OP stated in his original post . referring to my sierra manual 11, this bullet should be at 2.260" as well as the 69gn TMK .

i deduce adi have listed the WRONG COL for 69gn sierra . not the OP;s fault . if i were the OP , i'd contact ADI , point out the error . and maybe ask for his projectiles to be replaced as a show of goodwill ...

hope this helps

[madang55]

Have made the following discoveries based on a bit of "why is that". The ADI book says it uses a Winchester barrel with a 1:12 twist. My Howa has a 1:8 twist. Why? Answer; to accommodate the heavier projectiles. Hypothesis: If the barrel is good for longer projectiles, (Sierra says 1:8 good for 80gr) then, maybe, just maybe, the throat is a deeper.! I got the gauge out and tried to measure a super roo first and it wouldn't work. I discovered when I was extending the rod, the projectile just fell our the end without reaching the lands. Anticipation grows. Measuring the 69gr TMK, several times, it read an average of 2.315. I've dropped the powder back a tad, extended the seat to a COL of 2.300. Rand a few proj only cases through and there ya go. Loaded some even out to 2.308 and cycled them through with no change to the COL. I could probably seat them further out. Realisation is that if a manufacturer is going to make a rifle with a barrel with a twist to accommodate longer projectiles, it would be pointless designing it with a throat for lighter projectiles only. If ADI are basing their Data on a 1:12 barrel, then their COL is probably appropriate against a shorter throat. Was going to say I've re-christened the rifle due to the deep throat, but sensitivities must be observed.

[Wapiti]

COAL is developed individually for the rifle you are using. The specs listed in a reloading manual can only be used as a number, or a point for reference, not ever something to meet, copy or strive for.
As has been discovererd, specs are often BS, made up or f**k knows what.

An experienced reloader will individually measure what throat length they have with the appropriate equipment, then experiment with the dimensions they have, and the suitability of the projectiles they want to use that supposedly work within the twist and velocity they expect to get.

You're all pulling your hair out trying to meet some dimensions or number that may never work in your rifle, as Madang has found out, when all you can do is work with what you have.
Measure the length of your COAL max, and see if you can approach that within 10-20" IF you can.
If your rifle has a long throat, either because the maker doesn't give a cr@p about some handloader trying to get benchrest groups from an economy-type hunting rifle, or to allow for every possible combo of reloading bastardry that is concocted up by drunken nutjobs at 2am after reading some advice from the internet, then you are stuck.
You gotta work with the dimensions you are presented with, so get those sorted and see what you can do with them.
If it means 100" of jump to keep the projies falling out being no good for you, you got the wrong rifle.

Gunsmiths making an accurate rifle for a customer or barreling one for same, will throat the rifle for the intended twist in the barrel and the users' expectations of projectile weight and length. Factory rifles, find out what you are gifted with first before pulling your hair out.

[bigrich]

technically ,ADI f@cked up cause the listed COL is 25 thou less than what sierra list, and they make the bullets . even my 223 with 55gn are seated longer . i tend to use the bullet makers data for this reason . but your right , the listed data is a guide and should be thoroughly checked to suit the rifle

[madang55]

So, bottom line is, measure yr throat length and seat accordingly. In my case, my howa allows me to seat the 69gr TMK further that the ADI manual states. It also means I can seat the 55gr Super Roo a bit further out leaving less jump than I obviously have now. But seating to a depth of at least the calibre, and all the while fitting the magazine. Lessons learned.

[madang55]

I have determined that a bit more attention may be needed to the process. A. by measuring the throat on my barrel, I have found that I could seat to a COL of 2.450. But, the round wont fit in the magazine. So I have settled on 2.305. The ADI book obviously limits its data to the barrels used for that particular projectile (and calibre) so cant be accused for getting it wrong. It is the same for the Sierra book, and the Hornady book, etc, etc. It is us, the handloaders' responsibility to do it right. Doesn't matter how we measure, but we must do it right. I pulled all the ugly proj and re-seated to the new depth and they're all pretty now.
B. I have discovered neck tension. the uglies really didn't want to come out. It was an effort. More attention needed to the inside of the necks. I've used a 35mm film cannister with a mix of graphite and No.71/2 shot. Give em a dip and a wipe on the outside and things are much nicer. Make sure to give the cases a tap to dislodge any stuck shot. And, no, Redding Competition Dies with neck bushings are not on the Christmas list.

[madang55]

I have given up. 24gr/2206H and I blew some primers. I've never blown primers, ever.. The 55gr SRoo will do fine

[Wapiti]

That's a big tip to handloaders to work up from a sensible minimum.
24gn/2206H in all our 223's from Sakos to Howas to a Tikka T3 varmint and the missus' Rem 7515 is a mild load. Well at least not showing any pressure signs. In some instances with old cheap x-mil brass it's compressed too. I see some even use 25gns... but not me, although when chrony'd it's markedly quicker.
But 24gns shows the best results in both numbers and paper.

[jezzab]

No pressure signs in either rifle

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