Foxes, Proof or no Proof at all ??

[Die Judicii]

In this day and age, has anyone actually got trail cam evidence, or personally witnessed a fox taking and killing a normal healthy lamb ?

In all my hunting of dogs I have watched foxes multitudes of times in paddocks with sheep, lambs, and baby goats (kids).
Never once have I seen a fox attack or take any of them while in a normal and healthy condition.

Yes, they take carrion, afterbirth, bits of wool etc, but never live and healthy ones.
Crows will pick their eyes out before the ewe has finished giving birth, and then the lamb is helpless and doomed anyway.
I've seen cunning foxes actually mingle with a mob of sheep under spotlight, and the sheep either don't mind or don't even realise.

When a fox is wandering through a paddock of sheep,, the sheep don't give or really pay much attention at all, which strongly suggests that they don't see the fox as an apex predator or of any real threat.

On the opposite side of the coin,,,,

If there is a dog in the paddock anywhere near sheep or goats, they really panic, start milling about, or stampede wildly and even knock fences down.
This also applies with cattle.

So, while not being a "greenie" and calling for the end of hostilities towards foxes,,, I do believe that they are blamed for an awful lot that they are simply not guilty of.

As I said in the begining, Does anyone have Proof, or Not ?

[Zach]

Not personally, but I've seen thermal footage from a pest controller based in QLD (believe he goes by Bolt Action Productions on YouTube but I might be mistaking him for someone else) of foxes circling seemingly healthy ewes and lambs.
He'd shoot the fox, move to watch another ewe, and a new fox has torn apart the healthy walking lamb by the time he's back 10 minutes later.

[Wapiti]

DJ, I have seen it with my own eyes.
It's absolutely fact that foxes will take lambs. Whether or not the situation the fox is in at the time, food supply-wise, I spose is the factor at the time and place.

Prior to thermals, a mate and I would do some work at a mate down the roads place. We'd stay in the shearers quarters and across the track was their lambing paddock so that it was close to keep eyes on.
I had a 300 RSAUM Sendero, and my mate Craig had his 300WM, same model rifle. We'd hit the paddock from the front verandah with rifles on bipods with rear bags, the non-shooter would fire up an SL240 spotty. Many a fox was hit as it went in to scoop up a lamb as it was being born.
We'd experiment with different projectiles, our favourite was the 110gn Sierra HP or VMax. The foxes were spifflicated.
Not just foxes, but boars. Never saw any sows ever coming on for the easy pickings.

Absolutely foxes will actually sit there, manoeuvre to a spot behind the ewe and come in when enough was out to grab.
Maybe if there's easier pickings where you are, they won't. But if they are hungry, they definitely do it.
Edit: but can't prove it. We just did this stuff and it wasn't something to take pics of, and certainly we never had any fancy pants thermals that recorded video to play the social media status crowd.

[womble]

Never seen it. But even if they couldn’t take it they’d still kill it.

Tend to agree all comes down to hunger and available resources. Just a miniature wolf, behaves exactly the same.

[Die Judicii]

Not doubting in any way what you blokes are saying,, it's just that I've yet to see it happen.

What doesn't make sense to me is how come a fox can casually wander through a paddock containing sheep, and in many cases in between the sheep, and the sheep don't take off in blind panic the way they do if it were a dingo/wild dog ?

That just simply does not compute to me.

[Jorlcrin]

I've seen foxes kill lambs; had one drag a (freaking fat and healthy) pet lamb out of the house yard in the night, under a hole in the fence, and got it some distance down the paddock before chewing it's head off and abandoning the carcass.
Found multiple evidence of foxes killing lambs in the paddock; hard to discern if the lambs were healthy.
But I'll be astounded if the foxes are only taking the weak or abandoned.

[Heard similar argument years ago about eagles only taking weak or abandoned lambs - then saw 3 instances of eagles swooping and taking lambs from the middle of a mob of sheep - there are a number of recorded instances of eagles attempting to take young infant children, so a young healthy lamb isnt a stretch..]

Also seen the tracks of a fox killing an echidna, of all things.

Also seen dingoes walk through sheep without reaction, yet the roos all panic.
Also seen sheep react wildly to dingoes other times, so it's a toss-up how the sheep react.
Much of that seems to be whether the dogs are trying to 'work' the sheep, or whether they are simply passing through.
MOST of the time, we see the dingoes targeting the roos, and so the sheep get a bit complacent.
But when Mrs dingo needs the extra protein(in pup), or she's training the kids, the sheep get hammered.

Foxes often follow the dingoes, if dogs are running a regular circuit(we often see them about 2 hours later on the cameras).
But if the dingoes get wind of the fox, they'll try hard to kill foxey.

[Wapiti]

A lot of this stuff goes completely unseen. I spose it depends how lucky you are to be at the right place at the right time.

I remember walking a paddock that was a real nasty place for lamb losses from all critters. There was this streaking shadow over me and when I realised what irpt was it was all over - a wedgetailed eagle swooped down and in one motion picked up a (day old I'd reckon) lamb without a sound.
It landed in a dead tree and as I watched it ripped the head off the lamb with its beak and flew off with the body.
To the nest, I'd guess.
I remember hearing the lambs little head make a faint thump as it hit the ground. It looked like it had been screwed off.

[brinny]

Seen it first hand one night mate......A bloke i know has a southdown stud down near Warnambool.....He was having all sorts of problems loosing lambs down there....
A mutual mate put him onto me and i went down there to see if i could help him out.....
Doing a stakeout on a few mobs of lambing ewes one night, saw a critter coming in some 300m from me....made a bee line straight for the ewes....I was in the next paddock over plus a laneway inbetween as well.....
I headed off as quick as i could to get closer, stopping to scan every so often.....He circled around the ewes for a start then pounced on a lamb and threw it around like a rag doll...dropped it...then picked it up again....By this time i was running as i had to circle around the ewes to get a shot as the mob was directly behind.....
I closed the distance to around 200m and to where i could get a shot and knocked him over....huge big dog fox....Lamb was still alive too...
This was about 1am in the morning.....i rang the farmer and he came down and took the lamb back to his nursery.....
Spoke to the farmer a week or so later and he said the lamb lived for 4 days and died....he skun it and said it had horrific injuries from bite marks.....
Just wished i hit record on the monocular to get it on film......

[bigpete]

I've seen them eat lambs straight out of a ewe while she's birthing them,I've seen them eat nothing but the udder off a down ewe. I've also seen an eagle stalk up on a fresh born lamb so I sent a round between the 2

[Jorlcrin]

Also watched eagles (too many times to count) work in tandem; harassing a roo till she tosses the young Joey from her pouch.
I'm certain a lamb would be a lot less effort, for probably a bit more meat...

Mustering a large scrubby paddock one morning, my bike spooked a mob of roos, and one dumps her joey in front of me as she flees.
At the point where young Joey starts spitting at me for disturbing him, a large shadow overhead resolves into a huge Wedge-tail, which lands and plonks a proprietal talon over the hissing/spitting joeys' neck, and then stared me down.
Another Wedgie was in a low orbit not 50 meters off.
So I left Angry Joey with his new adoptive parents, and reflected on how the Circle of Life can be a bitch for some participants...

They are opportunistic predators at the top of their game.

[ColdStart]

I've seen them eat lambs straight out of a ewe while she's birthing them,I've seen them eat nothing but the udder off a down ewe. I've also seen an eagle stalk up on a fresh born lamb so I sent a round between the 2

I have seen this as well.

Growing up on a sheep and cattle farm, I seen it all, and their is a reason why our lambing paddock were next to the house yard.

Seen it many a time a fox standing around waiting for the birth to take the lamb.

Seen the after effects off foxes killing a 3 or 4 lambs and only taking one away.

Seen the after effects them taking perfectly healthy lambs (during the day) later that night.

[Die Judicii]

Well thank you for all that, you blokes,
You've opened my eyes to something I have never seen and hope not to.
Considering the 100's of hours I spend watching and waiting with sheep, cattle, and goats it's surprising that I haven't witnessed it.
I've got no idea anymore of how many dogs I've seen come in or called in, and shot.
Seen heaps of foxes too, but rarely shoot them in preference of waiting for dog/s.
Maybe I should start packing a 22rf with subs for Brer Fox.

[MG5150]

Here is a fox attacking a full-grown sheep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkNLOUdoLlA

[NTSOG]

G'day,

I posted this video a year ago. It shows a vixen in milk trying to get a newborn twin lamb on a farm just down the road. The ewe chased the fox off to the left of screen leaving the newborn lamb by itself. The fox spotted the newborn by itself and went around behind the ewe, but she was quick enough to 'front' the vixen again and make it keep distance. I then shot the vixen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOzCUqmMxEw

[Die Judicii]

NTSOG > Well done Mate.
Were you on your own when you shot that vid ?

That is one of the things that I'm hopeless at. Although having the equipment and capability to video stuff, I never have.
When I think about it, its mainly due to the fact that I sit all night waiting on a dog,,, but then when it turns up there is invariably only a very brief
amount of time to line it up and shoot. Otherwise you miss the opportunity all together.

Many times I've thought afterwards (too late) that I should have pushed the button and filmed or photographed it.
But I'm too busy trying to concentrate on getting the job done,, and completely forget.

The big thing against me is that I can only film or photograph through my binoculars, and have to put them down to grab the rifle and the thermal.

[NTSOG]

G'day DJ,

I was sitting out by myself. As soon as I see a fox or hare coming in a shootable position I turn on the video camera in the night vision rifle scope. Of course, some of the NV scopes have recoil activated recording, but for the video clip of the ewe I made sure the camera was on for the duration. Sometimes there isn't time to turn on the camera. I like to take the video so as to review my shots, especially the misses as happened tonight when I parted the hair on the back of a fox at 45 yards and it ran off!

[NTSOG]

G'day All,

As a follow up to the subject of foxes bothering and even killing livestock I found a series of photos on my trail camera this morning of one of my cows [which calved two days ago] running a fox around the paddock. Her calf was a little way off. I have bait set for this particular fox and, rain permitting, I'll shoot it tonight. The blighter turned up, the cow spotted it and chased it off multiple times. Only after the cow left the area did the fox get to the bait.

Jim

[Die Judicii]

G'day All,

As a follow up to the subject of foxes bothering and even killing livestock I found a series of photos on my trail camera this morning of one of my cows [which calved two days ago] running a fox around the paddock. Her calf was a little way off. I have bait set for this particular fox and, rain permitting, I'll shoot it tonight. The blighter turned up, the cow spotted it and chased it off multiple times. Only after the cow left the area did the fox get to the bait.

Jim

A double whammy Mate.

[JDM9691]

Hi all, first time poster here.
I spent several nights at the neighbors earlier this year, where they had a mob of sheep that were lambing in early April - a month before any other sheep in the district. Previously I'd only ever been a spotlighter driving round in the ute, but this time I walked around the paddock with a thermal spotter, and it did change my perception on foxes being the ruthless killers I'd always believed them to be. Most of the time they'd trot around, sniffing for mice, afterbirth, dead lambs etc, and on the few occasions when they were close to the sheep they didn't seem to be in attack mode.

But, I did see foxes sitting within meters of penned ewes with twins, and numerous abandoned lambs that were hundreds of meters away from the mob when I arrived in the paddock (and when I left), but not there the next night - if they found their mothers or were killed I don't know. I could see foxes coming in from a distance, making a beeline for the paddock because they knew they could get a feed, and I kept knocking them off up to 7 a night. Ended up getting 33 around that one mob, and did wonder if I didn't shoot them and they were all coming back to the same mob and competing for food, would they still be content to scavenge, or would they be more agressive? Would an abandoned lamb make it through the night under such numbers? Hypothetical but I think I know the answer!

I do have footage of one ripping into a live sick sheep in a feedlot. The ewe did end up dying a few days later. As a farmer, many times I've gone out to check the ewes at lambing time, only to find a dead ewe with her ass chewed out and no sign of the lamb. If they died during birth or by the foxes is unknown, but usually if you find a ewe alive having trouble, you can pull the dead lamb out and the ewe will live.

Over the years I have also lost many chooks to foxes, so they don't get a lot of sympathy at my place, but I admit watching them through the thermal for the first time was a bit of an eye opener.