Input needed on Remington UMC 300Blk Subs

[Die Judicii]

I need someone to come up with some practical info on the performance of these at close range (100 to 150 meters) on dogs.

Remington UMC Subs
300 AAC Blackout 220 GR L300AAC4
Jacketed Hollow Point

At that range are they more likely to pencil through a dog or open up nicely ?

Anyone got first hand knowledge on them in the aforementioned scenerio ?

Reason I'm asking is,, I've got a new client that I'm going out to shoot for thursday night.
They're having issues with a dog/s and I want to be successful the first night if possible,, but not having tried these on dogs before, I'm wondering if I should simply stick with the old faithful .308 HP's and their time proven performance.

[Wapiti]

DJ, firstly apologies for not that EXACT expertise.
But I can tell you that the same Sierra 308 projectile in a 300 RUM magnum cartridge doing 2900fps plus pencils right through dogs without blowing up.
Other than hitting a large bone and driving that all over the chest on the way through due to velocity, if it doesn't hit something like that it just pencils.
It might die then and there, or do a runner and drop hours later.

At 1000fps in the 300 Blk, it's going to be WAY less impressive.
Having said that, poking a 30cal hole in something isn't a recipe for long life.

[bladeracer]

I need someone to come up with some practical info on the performance of these at close range (100 to 150 meters) on dogs.

Remington UMC Subs
300 AAC Blackout 220 GR L300AAC4
Jacketed Hollow Point

At that range are they more likely to pencil through a dog or open up nicely ?

Anyone got first hand knowledge on them in the aforementioned scenerio ?

Reason I'm asking is,, I've got a new client that I'm going out to shoot for thursday night.
They're having issues with a dog/s and I want to be successful the first night if possible,, but not having tried these on dogs before, I'm wondering if I should simply stick with the old faithful .308 HP's and their time proven performance.

I would expect the subsonic 220gn to be for fairly close range, especially at night, say 100m max?

A 220gn bullet through the head is going to drop a dog, even with an FMJ. And into the chest, even if it just drills a hole through the heart it's not going to go far with a big hole like that through it.

As it's the first test though I would take both rifles in case you do have issues with the subs.

[Wapiti]

So this afternoon I got some spare time to try Trailboss with a 135 hollow point Sierra "varminter" bullets.
Reason in trying those is they might expand somewhat if shots aren't ideally placed, which people who shoot in the field a bit know all too well. The other reason is my self imposed ethical stand that anyone who thinks match bullets that pencil ought to be used on animals aren't on my list of credible associates.
Trouble is, it's pointless taking another rifle if you fail. A dog isn't going to give you another chance, and the results of that are enormous.
Anyway, after too high and too low velocities, I found that 8gns averages 1050fps, but with wild variations.
7.5 drops a whopping 100fps average, whereas 8.5 shoots supersonic.

Anyway, screw that idea. The drop was 900mm average at 110m from the 3000fps load, with wild differences depending on velocity variations. 20"barrel.

Then I thought, I'm breaking all my rules here. I don't see the point. Others might. But I did the experiment.

[bladeracer]

So this afternoon I got some spare time to try Trailboss with a 135 hollow point Sierra "varminter" bullets.
Reason in trying those is they might expand somewhat if shots aren't ideally placed, which people who shoot in the field a bit know all too well. The other reason is my self imposed ethical stand that anyone who thinks match bullets that pencil ought to be used on animals aren't on my list of credible associates.
Trouble is, it's pointless taking another rifle if you fail. A dog isn't going to give you another chance, and the results of that are enormous.
Anyway, after too high and too low velocities, I found that 8gns averages 1050fps, but with wild variations.
7.5 drops a whopping 100fps average, whereas 8.5 shoots supersonic.

Anyway, screw that idea. The drop was 900mm average at 110m from the 3000fps load, with wild differences depending on velocity variations. 20"barrel.

Then I thought, I'm breaking all my rules here. I don't see the point. Others might. But I did the experiment.

I would also lean toward a more lightly-constructed bullet for subsonic use against lightly-built targets, but for close-range head shots it won't much matter what the bullet is. Match bullets tend to blow up too easily rather than pencil through like harder bullets.

As for failure, I'm assuming the load is accurate enough to make the hit without any issue, so even if the bullet doesn't deform it's still going to destroy the important structures like the brain, cervical spine or heart. I doubt any hit in those zones will allow survival for more than a few minutes at best.

I can't get my mind around your 900mm drop at 110m though, at what range is the rifle zeroed with your normal load?

According to Sierra the 135gn Varminter must not exceed 3200fps, but I suspect that would depend entirely on the twist rate. They specifically spruik it for the BLK in reduced loads so it must be fairly explosive at subsonic velocities, at least with the 7"-twist of the BLK. BC is .308 so at 1050fps with a 100m zero (and assuming a fairly high-mounted thermal optic) it's about 100mm high at 50m. With a 50m zero it should drop around 220mm at 100m. If you are normally zeroed for a fast supersonic load then the drop would be significantly more. But zeroing to the load you're using isn't difficult, especially with electronic optics. A 3000fps load is unlikely in the BLK though, were you testing in a .308 perhaps? I use 8.5gn of TB in the 7mm-08 for subsonic 145gn loads, and 10.6gn of TB behind 150gn bullets for subsonic .30-30.

[Blr243]

Leave that stuff at home Performance will b lacking and trajectory very tricky

[Die Judicii]

OK, Update listed under Hunting & Varminting section.

[straightshooter]

So this afternoon I got some spare time to try Trailboss with a 135 hollow point Sierra "varminter" bullets.
Reason in trying those is they might expand somewhat if shots aren't ideally placed, which people who shoot in the field a bit know all too well. The other reason is my self imposed ethical stand that anyone who thinks match bullets that pencil ought to be used on animals aren't on my list of credible associates.
Trouble is, it's pointless taking another rifle if you fail. A dog isn't going to give you another chance, and the results of that are enormous.
Anyway, after too high and too low velocities, I found that 8gns averages 1050fps, but with wild variations.
7.5 drops a whopping 100fps average, whereas 8.5 shoots supersonic.

Anyway, screw that idea. The drop was 900mm average at 110m from the 3000fps load, with wild differences depending on velocity variations. 20"barrel.

Then I thought, I'm breaking all my rules here. I don't see the point. Others might. But I did the experiment.

Some years ago I explored making a poor man's 300BLK using a Zastava Mini MkX in 7.62x39 and cast 240 grain (nominal) with Hercules Blue Dot.
The good bit.
I found a load that gave a consistent 1070 to 1100 fps muzzle velocity. The powder more than 1/2 filled the case so there was no risk of double charging and the large rifle primer ensured good ignition with the long 240 grain projectile occupying much of the empty space inside the case. The noise was a lot more than a subsonic 22 but way less than a factory round with the added benefit of no sonic crack.
The bad bit.
Accuracy, if you could call it that, was a disappointment. I suspected a wrong twist or badly cast projectiles as the culprit.
So I did the sensible thing and gave up.
A year or two later I discovered that the bedding had failed and the recoil lug on the action had broken it's timber abutment causing the tang to pound the rear of the inlet.
Now with the bedding repaired and pillars added the rifle shoots quite well even with cheap Chinese ammo.
When I get motivated I will revisit the subsonic ammunition.
I would be surprised if anybody were able to get any kind of jacketed projectile to expand on smallish soft skinned game, the way the hype claims at even close distances with a 1100 or less MV.
There is a greater likelihood of expansion at any reasonable distance with soft cast lead projectiles. They are the way to go.

[Die Judicii]

OK you blokes, as per my original question in this thread,,,,,, I got my true answer last night.
I went out all set up specifically for pigs with the 300 Blk.
And the Remington UMC 220 gr Sub Sonics.

True to my form and luck,, not a single pig was sighted.
But in their place,,,,, two dogs.

The first was an almost adult size, and certainly lacking lifes skills.
It sauntered across in front of where I was set up, (50 meters) completely oblivious of me being there.
I coughed loudly and it obliged by stopping and staring towards me.
I settled the cross hairs on the chest and fired.
It gave an almighty yelp and went straight into overdrive, and didn't stop, eventually disappearing from view just on 300 meters away and hadn't slowed.

The round had obviously passed clean through and done little to no damage.

Due to shock and disbelief I then fired 3 rounds at a small knot hole in a tree trunk.. and the impacts cloverleafed in the knot.

Lesson learned,,,,, do NOT use this ammo on dogs.

Just before midnight I packed up and drove 5 or 6 kilometers across the property to a small dam where I had left the carcass of the boar that I shot on the 29th Sept.
I parked and started setting up again for the rest of the night,, picked up my binocs to have a quick look around and there was a large dog just heading down to the waters edge for a drink.
I reckon it had been up at the pig carcass having a feast.
By the time I inserted the magazine and turned the scope on,, it had decided things weren't quite right,, and quickly headed off.

Maybe just as well cos the bullet probably would have been a repeat of the first dog.
At least the chances are that this dog will come back again.
I'm planning on taking Blade Racer out there on Mon or Tues afternoon and night.
Maybe he'll be able to nail it with Black Powder.

[Wapiti]

Great to read the last two posts, they don't make me feel silly giving up on this when I did.
But in your case, DJ, it was the hopeless, unsuitable projectiles. Americans are obsessed with pretending to be special forces and making this completely useless ammo with pencilling projectiles - what good are they? Stroking in front of a mirror then doing commando rolls in the loungeroom isn't going to make anything useful.
Maybe good for paper punching, but the second target next door isn't going to do a runner if the shot isn't sub so there's no point there either.
At least you hit the f**ken thing.
That was why I tried to get something that would expand, a projectile that blows an icecream bucket sized hole in a dog at 2800-3000 in a 308, might still work at 1000fps...
But it was the spraying accuracy with Trailboss that made it pointless, yeah I could try pistol powders if I could find some but there's better ways of being a stealthy hunter if you use your imagination.
I'm certainly not missing anything then eh?
And I saw the biggest bloody wild dog yesterday at midday just passing the neighbours on the road, sizing up his sheep through his under height fence and there was nothing I could do but drive on. Huge, black and shaggy and it gave me a look of utter benevolence too... The things you see without a rifle, you can't take a pocketknife with you into town when doing a food shop let alone a rifle on the seat...

[Die Judicii]

Great to read the last two posts, they don't make me feel silly giving up on this when I did.
But in your case, DJ, it was the hopeless, unsuitable projectiles. Americans are obsessed with pretending to be special forces and making this completely useless ammo with pencilling projectiles - what good are they?

Don't get me wrong,,,,,,,, I'm not giving up on that ammo.
I'm still keen to see how it performs on something solid like a big old sow or a boar.
But they are just no good on thin skinned and light boned animals like dogs.

Besides, i've got too many of em to just give up.

[wanneroo]

Well, if you can get them, try the Berrys Bullets 220g bullet for 300 Blackout. These are cheap and accurate and featured in my big project on Youtube, Project Big Booty.

They are a plated bullet and as I recall with the Remington 220g bullet(I have some in the safe I think), it's a full metal jacket bullet.

Here in the USA there are also companies that make coated 220g lead bullets for 300 Blackout.

A plated or coated bullet might work better for your situation rather than a full metal jacket bullet, as those are more likely to deform and tumble.

Essentially from my testing, you can expect the power of a 45 ACP bullet but with less sectional density they hit harder and punch deeper.

[Die Judicii]

Thanks Wanneroo for that info, but unfortunately it won't help in my scenario because,,

a) I don't reload.
b) I'm too old and stupid to learn,
c) I'm not a high volume shooter,
d) So reloading wouldn't be financially viable,

On an average full night for me on the dogs, I'll only fire one single round.
The best night I've ever had was, 9 shots and 7 dead dogs.

[wanneroo]

Thanks Wanneroo for that info, but unfortunately it won't help in my scenario because,,

a) I don't reload.
b) I'm too old and stupid to learn,
c) I'm not a high volume shooter,
d) So reloading wouldn't be financially viable,

On an average full night for me on the dogs, I'll only fire one single round.
The best night I've ever had was, 9 shots and 7 dead dogs.

Well, damn. IF you wanted to, you can load on a small scale with a Lee hand press and a few basic tools. It's not that hard.

But maybe you can look at the Hornady Black 208g A-Max or the Federal 220g jacketed hollow point.

[Wapiti]

DJ's prime targets are dogs, pigs second.
Those projectiles will never expand at 300Blk velocities.

Even at top speed in a full-house 308, a 168 AMax will only just expand on a good size tough pig in the chest.
Those big, long, heavy .30 cals at that slow spud-gun speed are just pencil drills.

Who knows, you might get a lucky instant nervous system core strike or blood-pressure drop fast kill. You never know your luck.

[Die Judicii]

DJ's prime targets are dogs, pigs second.
Those projectiles will never expand at 300Blk velocities.

Even at top speed in a full-house 308, a 168 AMax will only just expand on a good size tough pig in the chest.
Those big, long, heavy .30 cals at that slow spud-gun speed are just pencil drills.

Who knows, you might get a lucky instant nervous system core strike or blood-pressure drop fast kill. You never know your luck.

Well here I go again,
Further evidence that supports these views.

I went out the other night specifically to test the Remington UMC 300 AAC Blackout 220 GR ammo on pigs.
They are supposedly a hollow point (albeit a tiny aperture),,,,,, but DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME OR MONEY on them.

It's just as well I had the 308 with my favorite ammo laying ready to go alongside the 300 Blackout.

The black pig was the first to appear, and at 55 meters I hit it in the boiler room with a Remington UMC 220 GR.
The same thing (as previously reported) happened,, it PENCILLED straight through and out the other side.
The pig didn't even flinch.
It just stopped advancing towards the waters edge for a drink, and simply turned around and started walking back the way it had come.
I swapped rifles and laid a 130gr Speer HP into the same spot.
Resulting in an instantaneous non kicking death.

The brindle pig was next to show up, and copped one single 130gr Speer HP from the 308 also in the boiler room at the same angle and range.
Again it was an instantaneous kick free death.

I had hoped that hitting something fairly hefty like a pig, that the UMC's would have mushroomed, but certainly did not.
Clear, through and through,,,,,,,,,, and I don't think the pig had even realized that it had been hit.

for the UMC subs ammo.

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[Blr243]

These

[Blr243]

Makers copper Rex But u have to reload. And you have to import them from USA Miles ahead of the old nosler 220 grain subs and the hornady 190 sub x

[Wapiti]

OK, what is all this fetish ammo makers have about heavy-for-calibre bullets being loaded subsonic?
And being match bullets that, when fired in supersonic loads, don't even expand at 2-3x the speed of sound, unless they hit something solid enough to break up? Bullets never designed or recommended for hunting?

Yeah yeah, using existing bullets available for supersonic loads is a no brainer, but why are they projectiles that will not expand?
I think that it's only because heavy-for-calibre projectiles are easier to get under the sound barrier, and also in my tests, the lighter ones just have this awful spread of speed resulting in vertical stringing?

Then, I see these Hornady supposedly "hunting" Sub-X bullets for this purpose, selling at what I reckon are ridiculous prices? And when I ask the question from people who have used them how they went, it seems that the results with these supposed specialised bullets are poor too.

[wanneroo]

This is where handloading comes into play as you can optimize certain situations.

I found a good accurate load with the Berry's 220g at 1250 feet per second. Subsonic is around 1050 FPS for most people. Obviously that 1250 FPS is not subsonic then but it seemed like performance picked up a bit and I think I could probably squeeze another 50-100 FPS out of them.

Probably so Remington meets their promise of "subsonic" ammo they have these downloaded to 950 FPS or so.

I think I have some of this ammo I bought years ago.

I bought some of the Hornady Sub X bullets 190g for a Youtube project which I am waiting to start until I get a 10 inch barrel. I don't think they are intended for "hard" targets.

[Wapiti]

Hy DJ, if you are still interested in all that sub ammo you bought and being able to use it humanely, as this is important to you as it is to me too.

Have you thought about making two tools on the lathe to give these things a proper hollow point (open up and deepen the tiny match hollow point tip) to force the projectiles to open up somewhat?

You could drill out say, an M24 structural bolt to fit the cartridge in to, that has the tip sticking out the end to be filed off for a fairly large 4mm diameter flat.
You could heat it up with the oxy and water-quench, so you could file the tip down on each cartridge, so they are all the same length.
Hardening the "jig" would avoid the file cutting it when you brought the tips down to the height required.

Then you'd drill out another bolt in the lathe for this now-modified cartridge, but with a 3mm hole through it to guide the 3mm drill down centrally into the projectile, down well into the lead core to a reasonable depth, to see if you can get expansion going in the subsonic rounds.
You would harden this jig too, so the 3mm drill wouldn't eventually open up the hole you made. This would ensure all projectiles were drilled central and will still spin reliably along their axis when fired.
You could set the depth of the hole by seating the drill bit into the chuck deeper, and use the chuck bottoming out on the hardened jig to make each one exactly the same. Maybe start by dropping the hole in about 10mm, well into the lead core.

The loaded rounds will then look like one of the ones loaded with those Speer 130gn hollow points, except with a larger opening perhaps.

Yes, the projectiles will be a bit lighter, maybe 10 grains or so. But they'll all be the same.
As you've made the projectiles lighter for the given powder charge, you will have actually made the load a little lighter for that charge. Because everything else remains the same except the projectile.
I'd be willing to bet that these rounds will still then, stay under the speed of sound but will have the shape to open up somewhat on pigs, definately. Maybe even on foxes and probably, dogs.
Then you can use them up, might be worth it.
Because I know you are not a paper puncher, and doing that with this ammo would feel like a terrible waste for you.
I did a doodle during a break from the damn exclusion fencing I am doing again.
The blood on the sketch is from a band aid leak, ignore that.

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[Wapiti]

And the drill jig.
Completely safe to do, as these match projectiles designed for paper punching are all solid base, so there is no risk of shooting the cores from the jackets as there is with grinding the tips of FMJ military ammo projectiles.
I reckon this would work great, and DJ you are pretty good on the lathe mate.

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[wanneroo]

Well I think this is where handloading is going to win you the gains, whatever bullet you use or whatever you modify. Reason being most of this factory ammo is downloaded a bit to be guaranteed subsonic and if you handload you can tweek it up to the speed of sound at your elevation and maximize the energy.

One thing I will say with the 220g bullets when I started loading them and worked the load down to subsonic, the load I had at 1250 FPS, yes it broke the speed of sound but it's a different animal than say .223 which I find obnoxiously loud with the supersonic crack. The crack from the 220g wasn't bad at all.

[Wapiti]

There aren't that many farmers reloading their own ammo and paining stats and drop charts for 800m shots.
Or as in DJ's case, he rather spends his time sitting alone waiting patiently for the animals the farmers are so desperate to have removed. These people don't go out "shooting", they're going out specifically targeting something causing terrible losses. So not many rounds are fired.
Years ago I found this 223 bullet in the yard when digging up the ground for a path, it is the typical 223 FMJ that we saw everywhere in the '80's when the only 223's a country person saw were the Mini-14's everywhere. Usually ending up traded in at the gunshops because they were pathetically inadequate in hitting power and accuracy expectations.
People just clipped their FMJ ammo with sidecutters, knowing that the tip of the ammo has bugger all influence on the zero of a rifle at normal culling shot ranges, usually within 200m if people are actually honest with themselves.
And I used to do it too, with 30-06 ammo in a Garand, and European strange FMJ 308 in an original M14. It bloody well worked too.

My sketches are a bit complicated, but you could make a big difference doing this. The hollow pointed drill hole has to be deep enough to make these super-slow low-energy rounds work. But at least they can be used up.

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[Die Judicii]

Hey thanks for that Wapiti,
That very idea had crossed my mind, but I did little about physically doing anything.
Praps I may well experiment with them.
It would be great to achieve some "real" expansion out of them,, which would open the way again,, into further developments.

[Wapiti]

Had a play with a spare 10 mins this arvo, have all this ADI 147gn FMJ that I got from Cleavers for around $1/round. Good thick boxer cases so rather than waste the bullets and powder I did a simple mod.
They shot smack bang in the middle of a steel gong at 100m, hit mega hard, so I will try them on the next run around in a gelblaster, hopefully tomorrow.

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[Die Judicii]

Hey that looks grouse,,
Keen to see how it performs in a block of gelatin at some stage.

[Wapiti]

Mate I just did these by hand, I didn't bother making a jig as I just wanted to prove this as a concept.
In that they cycled, and were consistent in point of impact, initially.

Not sure about using gel blocks... that they are truly indicative of certain game or ferals you'd be shooting. Haven't done it myself, but I've known of blokes who shoot a certain species because that's what they were doing anyway, then used the carcass to test a second rifle and its ammo for bullet performance. Of course in that case, they aren't risking losing an animal that may run off with a mortal wound yet not instant death.

Other thing I was looking at was the fact that, unlike your ammo where the jacket is open only at the tip, FMJ bullets are open at the base and the jacket is crimped around the heel of the bullet.
I have heard that in my case, if someone opens the tip up too much, the core can shoot out of the rifle barrel leaving the jacket, or bits of it, in the bore. Because it's open at the base, exposing the lead. Wouldn't be a great outcome shooting another projectile over that.
Now, that could be typical internet BS, but in theory it's possible so I wanted to try it. 3 shots isn't a big sample size though.

But in your instance, with the match bullets, that can't happen because the jacket is one piece all the way to the tip.
And as your bullets are going under 1100 fps, rather than these ones at nearly 2900, you will need a reasonably deep core hole drilled well into the lead to get expansion happening.