punching holes in primers

[tuknal]

im asking this for a mate , hes a harvestor that does around 200 p/w
hes recently had a new barrel put on his sako 85 223 and ever since its been blowing holes in primers
ive heard headspace being blamed but i dont see how this would be ,,but im no expert ,, how can headspace make primers blow holes ?
the only ammo being used was ADI soft points bulk pack ,and this has only happened since getting the rifle back so something has seemed to of changed with the rebarrel ,,but what ??
has this happened to anyone or does anyone know of a cure
hes gone back to reduced handloads without an issue ,,from 25gr 2206H to 22.5 with 55gr projectiles the loads are working for him but if your rifle cant handle factory loads then something is wrong
the smith that did the work is at a loss as to why ,the smith is in Vic he is NSW and its a bit of a stuff around to send it back ,but it may be the only answer
so im just asking for ideas or if anyone has had a similar thing happen and what was the cure

[Wapiti]

I have had it from factory overloads from rubbish ammo and have seen it from other rifles too.

Do you mean that the primer comes out of the pocket, or discs and just the firing pin indent blows out?

Sometimes a change in chamber dimensions, including headspace, can completely change a rifle's tolerance.
The same reason that two rifles, consecutive serial numbers, from the same maker, behave totally differently with the same ammo. One it is a mild normal load, the other too hot. It's dimensional differences in the chamber, throat length and bore, and even the finish in the barrel.

There is no way to find out why the change, except to measure all and every dimension that has been changed in the rebarrel. Not that easy and not without the gear required.
I'd start by comparing fired cases from the previous barrel to those now. I'd reckon there would be some tell-tale changes to pick up there for sure, and work from there.
I hope the gunsmith test fired the rifle and did this.

[tuknal]

i dont think the smith test fired it at all,,
just blows out where the pin hits ,,
all his old brass would be reloaded by now
i get what your saying but how does increase or decrease in chamber make this happen especially with factory ammo ,isnt it meant to be for allround use
could understand if they were hot reloads ,,ive seen reloads (not mine) that were very tight to open the bolt after firing from being a bit on the high side but never a hole in the primer
correct me if im wrong but aren't chambers finished a to standard size with a reamer ?

[perentie]

Pistol primers might do that.

[tuknal]

well funny you say that
he does use them for his reloads ,but these were factory rounds

[fussy]

Test the same ammo in another rifle; you might have bad batch.
Then test different ammo in that problem rifle.

[Damo300]

Strip a few of the factory loads down and swap out the primers.
Reload and try.

[deye243]

im asking this for a mate , hes a harvestor that does around 200 p/w
hes recently had a new barrel put on his sako 85 223 and ever since its been blowing holes in primers
ive heard headspace being blamed but i dont see how this would be ,,but im no expert ,, how can headspace make primers blow holes ?
the only ammo being used was ADI soft points bulk pack ,and this has only happened since getting the rifle back so something has seemed to of changed with the rebarrel ,,but what ??
has this happened to anyone or does anyone know of a cure
hes gone back to reduced handloads without an issue ,,from 25gr 2206H to 22.5 with 55gr projectiles the loads are working for him but if your rifle cant handle factory loads then something is wrong
the smith that did the work is at a loss as to why ,the smith is in Vic he is NSW and its a bit of a stuff around to send it back ,but it may be the only answer
so im just asking for ideas or if anyone has had a similar thing happen and what was the cure

Has your mate spoken to the smith yet after the third primer piercing the rifle should never have been used until it was fixed now he has probably done bolt face damage firing pin hole will now possibly need sleving

[Wapiti]

i get what your saying but how does increase or decrease in chamber make this happen especially with factory ammo ,isnt it meant to be for allround use
could understand if they were hot reloads ,,ive seen reloads (not mine) that were very tight to open the bolt after firing from being a bit on the high side but never a hole in the primer
correct me if im wrong but aren't chambers finished a to standard size with a reamer ?

Yes, but anyone can cut a chamber too deep, off-straight, cause chatter, get swarf to score the surface. Also, as reamers get used more, or is a dufussMcbuttsmuggle and has a go without correct or adequate lubrication, is rushing, swarf isn't cleaned out every few thou cut, they lose their sharp edges, wear and then cut different dimension chambers.
There's so many dimensional variables to make rifles that are supposed to be the same, behave different. We all know they do, it's dimensional differences and it's structural stress differences in how it's all goes together and is assembled.

Like I suggest, dimensionally it needs to be really scrutinised.
Hey can you post up a pic of the fired primers where they haven't pierced a hole?
The suggestion that the "smith" is a state away, has said dunno what's going on and that's it? Not good enough I reckon.
But sending a rifle interstate makes it very difficult.

There could possibly be an issue with that ammo too, a batch could've been on the high side. It is not unheard of.
I've posted on here how that happened to me and could almost have blown up the rifle.
Interesting that proven handloads don't do it.
That tells me where to look first.

[Fester]

It's hard, but likely the smith got it wrong, it's very fine accurate machining in chambers.
It would be surprising that ADI ammo is bad, but he would have to rule everything out before sending it.
Gather all the facts and write a well-worded letter.
The post costs should be shared, one way each, and I reckon he will test fire it this time.
I would expect a nice test target group to be shot after this mess.

I wouldn't trust any OS ammo anymore, as it's not just Wincraper that has lost all QC
Even the rifles are getting worse now, from Euro as well as the USA.

[TuskerOrd]

Gunsmith here, ask the gunsmith if he used gauges when he cut the chamber? If he did use gauges, ask him if he used both a Go and a No Go, if he only used a Go?

If the smith only used a Go gauge, he could have been sloppy with the depth of the chamber, I've also seen this happen when people use "new" cases as a gauge when cutting a new chamber. Which normally results in chambers being cut out of spec - resulting in pierced/blanked primers.

Do yourself a favor and buy/borrow a 223 No Go gauge, if the bolt closes on it.....the Gunsmith will have to answer. Take the gun to any local gunsmith and ask him to test, it takes 5 minutes. I do it a lot for customers, 9 out of 10 times I get to train the customer on how to set up their full length resizer die.

The issue is not always the Gunsmiths fault - sometimes its the ammo manufacturer's fault.

I've had a small number of customers that would only use factory ammo(cullers) and had the same issue. After getting the customer and the rifle back at my shop we we able to confirm the chamber was perfect - I demonstrated that the bolt will close on a Go but not on a NO GO gauge. After measuring it was determined that the factory ammo was below minimum length, resulting on the case/primer getting slammed into the bolt face causing blanked/pierced primers. We opted to shorten the chamber to where it would just not close on the Go gauge. The piercing primer issue disappeared.

[tuknal]

thanks to all with the info/help
tusker ,thanks for the info,it make sense,,i guess he,ll have to measure some cases if he hasnt fired them all already, ,but i doubt he,ll have the gear to measure it properly ,,
the go NO GO gauges would be handy but nearest gunsmith is 2hr drive for him,so it wont happen soon,

also what happened when the customer finished all the undersize factory ammo and gets a new lot that is in spec ,,would in spec cases then be too big or not be able/very tight to close bolt ?
not sure where he stands at the minute ,havent spoken for a couple days but ill definantly relay this info ,and when i find out the verdict or cause ill post it

[tuknal]

i get what your saying but how does increase or decrease in chamber make this happen especially with factory ammo ,isnt it meant to be for allround use
could understand if they were hot reloads ,,ive seen reloads (not mine) that were very tight to open the bolt after firing from being a bit on the high side but never a hole in the primer
correct me if im wrong but aren't chambers finished a to standard size with a reamer ?

Yes, but anyone can cut a chamber too deep, off-straight, cause chatter, get swarf to score the surface. Also, as reamers get used more, or is a dufussMcbuttsmuggle and has a go without correct or adequate lubrication, is rushing, swarf isn't cleaned out every few thou cut, they lose their sharp edges, wear and then cut different dimension chambers.
There's so many dimensional variables to make rifles that are supposed to be the same, behave different. We all know they do, it's dimensional differences and it's structural stress differences in how it's all goes together and is assembled.

Like I suggest, dimensionally it needs to be really scrutinised.
Hey can you post up a pic of the fired primers where they haven't pierced a hole?
The suggestion that the "smith" is a state away, has said dunno what's going on and that's it? Not good enough I reckon.
But sending a rifle interstate makes it very difficult.

There could possibly be an issue with that ammo too, a batch could've been on the high side. It is not unheard of.
I've posted on here how that happened to me and could almost have blown up the rifle.
Interesting that proven handloads don't do it.
That tells me where to look first.

the smith hasnt brushed it
he has said hes not sure why its happening ,and will take the rifle back to fix it

hes tried the entire bolt from another 85 ,and just the firing pin and spring as well to and it still does it ,,,and has swapped them in the other
he has 2 85s the other doesnt do it with the same ammo,i know hes swapped and tried all combos and it still happens in only the rebarreled one

the reloads hes doing i wouldnt call proven as yet hes only just started loading them like this its reduced loading by about 2gr
but hes done a few nights without an issue

[TuskerOrd]

"What happened when the customer finished all the undersize factory ammo and gets a new lot that is in spec ,,would in spec cases then be too big or not be able/very tight to close bolt ?",

The fellas got 1000 or more rounds to shoot and he does not live very far from me - told him to visit when he runs out of this batch and have tight bolt issues.

The more I read on this thread the more it seems to point to a oversized chamber, seems the gunsmith is a good chap. Let him sort it.

What to send to the gunsmith:
+ The rifle
* the bolt
* some cases that was fired in this rifle
* Some resized brass
* some reloaded ammo

This will enable the gunsmith to quickly determine where the problem is,

Contact your mates missus, wife, girlfriend or even parents and suggest they buy him a Derraco Bullet Comparator set at $90 and a digital vernier for his next birthday (https://www.derraco.com/product/derraco ... ide-promo/) Hope I don't get kicked of the forum for this!

[4range]

I have seen a video on line (possibly 'winning in the wind' video) where the presenter talks of punched primers being due to worn firing pin spring.

May not help at all but it might assist...

Hope it gets sorted.