The benefits of breeding and letting animals grow out

[Wapiti]

Some pics my wife sent me today.
We had a bit to do with deer management from our trips to Wanaka in NZ, and it's a fascinating subject. When you do a bit of research, particularly from the old books about the introduction of deer into NZ in the later 1800's by such greats as D. Bruce Banwell, David Yerex, Jack McKenzie (Mr. Wapiti), and the way when they just bolted and fed up on the different and way better plant species in NZ that had never been browsed by animals before... The result was stunning.

Even the Brits and Scots went apesh*t at how a few pregnant hinds and the odd reasonable Scottish and Brit royalty-bred stuff that they thought was exemplary, morphed over a few seasons into animals never seen in quality before. People from all over the world rode ships to hunt there.

And now, with the ability to hide these animals away from poachers, bring in the best examples from other areas, captured by nets from helicopters and shuffled about, the results are unreal. This is nutrition and management.
No different from the best examples of humans, athletes and nutrition. Or the breeding of the best bulls in a cattle breed, or sheep, or race horses.
It's amazing also, the jealousy and the bullsh*t that is in internet comments, by uneducated "deermasters" that haven't ever bred an animal, decry hunting something completely wild yet well bred, but are quite happy to pretend that the animals they pose for with pictures that, to me, are very ordinary, aren't saved for them and that they paid for too, just like the bloke in these pics.

Anyway, enjoy these 4 pics. If you want to know where they came from, or the country, search Venator, Wanaka, NZ. The centre of the most incredible scenery and opportunity I reckon is out there.
Unfortunately, doing this capturing, breeding, protecting and managing these animals costs a lot of money and time, so it doesn't come cheap if you want to kill one of these animals for your personal ego. The proof of how many people are fighting to pay whatever it takes tells you there's plenty who will. There are 1000's more on the list to have a go than there are animals.

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This mightn't be your thing, nor can some people get it that this is naturally how these animals with the right climate and nutrition, and being allowed to mature, can result in.
If some people want to mistakenly say, oh it's hormones then just add to the facebook comments from people who have never managed a breed of anything, probably their own health as well.
Most Australian hunters just don't have the patience of the discipline to see this through. This stuff just spurs me on and reinforces to me why I'm doing this stuff too because it's a challenge in a thousand ways. Each to his own!

[bigrich]

JESUS FREAKIN' CHRIST ! never in my life could i have imagined a set of antlers like those two . that is quite astounding . i've seen a 22 point red up at crows nest , was a fellas breeding stock stag , beautiful impressive animal . i've had a mate tell me the climate and available browse for deer in NZ is far better than OZ . read somewhere they tried introducing moose into NZ . didn't do too well though, all died out . there is the occasional sighting apparently . i'll take both those views with a grain of salt

[Wapiti]

The area wasn't suited for the moose Rich, there's a whole book on it. I have one from D. Bruce Banwell where he and others way back lived down there in the completely unsuitable, basically terrible conditions.
In 1900, Moose (really called Elk but this term was incorrectly given to Wapiti by US hunters and over time it stuck) were released in the Hokitika Valley but failed to establish, mostly thought to be because of the lack of waterways, lakes and suitable energy feed.
Back then it was, have a go, hindsight comes later.
Then in 1910, in Supper Cove in Dusky Sound down the bottom of Fiordland, another liberation took place but again, the area was just not allowing sustenance and support, and the conditions sucked the energy and ability to thrive out of them.
In fact, in the opposite of what I described above in my original post about conditions and feed quality, minerals and calcium, the "Moose" that did manage to breed and mature had virtual sticks for antlers, with none of the large palmations attributed to the same strains in North America, even North Asia. Then the poachers moved in.
See the link? Nutrition and conditions.
T.E. Donnes' book from 1924, that I have a copy of, states that the area was expected to provide a hideaway for them to spread and breed up before hunters got to them and stuffed it all up. Like with Wapiti, hunters got wind and started poaching which nearly wiped them out but the government brought in strict penalties and permits only initially issued after solid game management.
Blah, blah, right?

I chased these books from all over the world from strange little bookstores and they are precious possessions of mine now. When I kark it, I'm sure nobody will give a stuff about them but oh well.

What I reckon really sums this up, was this last week. My wife is the Facebook person, she puts up all our bull breeding pics and does all that, I find it to just be repulsive place full of pretenders. But you gotta be in it nowadays, to my disgust.
She showed me this post from one of the premier hunting mobs from Otago, where this young lady having taken this incredible fallow buck after a long hunt in the tops. There's a lot of young hunters in NZ, who are true hunters, not "shooters". They find what we call shooters as despicable; it'd just the way it is. This animal had been managed in a huge area where the managers had kept people away from this animal for years with hard work and security and years of allowing it to grow out, and she and her guide found it when finally they decided it was up for taking. After they ghad established it was of quality and had been given a few seasons to sow it's seed out there for the future, and before it went backwards with age.
The comments on Facebook were disgusting, all of them saying "How'd they photoshopped the fence out" or "They did well photoshopping this pic onto a shot of the tops" or "can you see the lumps all over it from the hormone injections"
Truth is, these jealous and uneducated commenters know nothing about game management, are probably overweight slobs punching from a keyboard that couldn't walk a kilometer, and comment just to feel a part of the other gutless mob that hides behind a screen. Gotta be a pleb amongst the crowd to feel part of it all today eh?They show how much they hate the people who spend a life making it happen, or the fit young people with the drive to actually work for the opportunity and fitness needed to have a go.

Farming is no different, there are others in my district who will gladly rubbish everyone else's' success from failures and having a go for years, but a look over their fence tells you how little right they have to comment. But we are all born with a mouth.
Some people will never stop making things happen, it's what they are all about, and then there are those who are the gimme-gimme and sit back expecting others to do it all. But still bitch about the results. They will always despise those who have a go, it's the only way they can stay breathing.

[Fester]

Interesting to read as I don't really know much more than what I see in the local forests.
I wrote a big response and must have timed out and lost it, I hate that.

Some reds with huge heads are shot by some of the better hunters around here.
Profty, "Aussie Bush Harvest" shot a couple, from memory, heaps of points and public land herds.
Maybe they get that way naturally, maybe the genetics come from the farm, NFI really.

What are your views on fallow body size variation? I have shot a handful from the same herd with good genes from what I have seen.
I once shot a huge old doe and was way to big to carry out like a small fallow meaty.
Tougher eating than smaller, younger does.

Blokes say fallow are like goats, but not where I hunt, they can be small, medium, and too big to carry out whole.

[Wapiti]

See that's the thing - the meat hunter will take the biggest, most healthy looking animal from a mob everytime.
I mean, why not? Why is this a dumb idea?
These "influencers" have everybody fooled, that's certain. They are just causing the breed to turn backwards, better to take two lesser animals, and leave the best examples to breed. When anybody makes a video doing this it just influences others.

Yeah, so what the "management" breeding thing is, rather than shoot the ones with bigger palms with all the points, they let them spread their genes. The better ones from that effort, years down the track, are left to breed also and on it goes. The exact same thing for females. half of the improvement circle is with them.

See there is always a throwback, a great example, back from the past, that is born, and if either by chance, luck, or the management of a heap of landowners that the better animal has as it's range - in keeping it alive - is just allowed to spread it's genes the resulting animals born is improving. Keep doing this and the general herd improves and starts exponentially getting stronger.
As well as that, too many animals results in an environment where (we can't see it) the most nutritious and mineral filled plants are eaten and the herd goes backwards.
That's why the quality of the animals, Reds particularly, in NZ had their quality and health rise up so much in just one or two breeding years, and in 15-20 years was the best in the world.

Only problem with this is the hunter component, unfortunately.
I always say this and it really annoys some people, but the truth hurts bigtime, and it hurts egos. Because egos is what drives this self-defeatin g practice, not trying to be a part of making improvements for everyone.
The Rut each year... hunters love the rut because the males they seek for their walls are distracted by the breeding season - they only have at best two fertility cycles of the Hinds - usually only one - to continue their bloodlines and it is the females who decide which male gets to mate with them.
If the "hunter", who's been told by all the "deermasters" that that's when the best males are killed drops the male when he's roaring and hasn't yet mated, these best males are killed before they make the herd one step better again.
It's the dumbest, most self-defeating idea, only people with no idea, and a big ticket on themselves, do this and then tell everyone how great they are at improving herd quality AND a future for others. I just shake my head.

Three examples of this working, and not working done wrong:
1. Our cattle stud - the Mrs puts up pics of our calves on the Facebook site and mostly only other breeders look at it, we get comments like "Oh my goodness, look at that chunky bull calf" or "When can we buy that bull calf - he has all the attributes of the best of the breed" and it's not a bull calf, it's a little heifer. Too much to explain there but breeders will get it.
When you compare those calves with the ones next door where the bloke picks up twenty weaners from the sales and thinks he'll make it big growing them out and at the same age as ours, when his are 300kg in X months, ours are 500kg in half that time. Deer are no different.
2. The feral fallow deer in the Stanthorpe region near me - hunters come out from Brisbane onto properties out here they have been allowed access on and try and get the best examples, heads mainly. Well, the heads are appalling quality out here now, the best animals are big-bodied when conditions are good, but all the males with the best attributes have been killed before they could bring the breed back and they are now all spindly things. And when conditions go backwards, like now, when I've spoken to hunters in town, they pull back thinking that it's a good thing, whereas it's actually the worst thing they could do.
3. The Brisbane Valley - yes there are some good heads up there but they aren't for the everyday hunter unless he's won the lotto - the amount of 4x5 and 4x4 spindly heads I see dead in magazines appals me. the people managing them somehow manage, with their BS, to convince paying hunters that they are "managers", truth is that they are in it for the money, walk around with their pockets inside out and have everyone fooled.
There's a bloke from down south pulling up here Monday to drop us off a dozen animals of two breeds, from lines with mid-20 point stags for us to improve our efforts and refresh the blood in ours. It costs us big, sure. I'm benefitting from someone else who's been improving these animals for over 50 years. Gotta do it, just like cattle. In his front compartment he's got some reds for a prominent YouTube "manager" up around the Bne valley that are being brought up to just shoot and for this bloke to keep up the myth that he is the big man in deer management, they are not the best examples, but they are the ones the breeder is dumping cheap because he has rated them not fit to breed from and this is a long-standing deal he has with this "manager". But they will be released up there and SOLD to hunters for big profit as wild. And nobody knows any better, and so it all continues. The hunter will think he has had "fair chase" because this bloke will convince them, well? Good or bad?
And they leave educated by a bloke laughing at them as they leave.

And then there's the people who say all introduced animals are "feral" and they should have unlimited access to blow them all down, as fast as possible. If the gun owners want to lose that part of their sport real fast, that's a good self-important way of going about it.
Umbrella up now for the sh*t to start being thrown.

[Fester]

Yeah, nothing more correct than the last bit, and I sort of wonder if the greens are after hunters rather than the deer eradicated in this latest push.
It's good that they will never do it, even if they try a biological accidental release, to cover themselves when it goes bad.

To me, it seems the high-hunting-pressure forest deer (Fallow) anyway seem to manage themselves in a way.
The good bucks are hard enough to even see let alone shoot, and if they are old, they are even harder.
Does are plentiful, so it just keeps going, even with chopper bombing; luckily, they are very incompetent and corrupt around here.
Likely why they are not keen to help with the pigs.
The benders, who have to do it efficiently with good shooters and pilots, would likely laugh at their efforts and embarrass them.

I am no trophy hunter and was a bit lucky to get a mature buck, just the one that was there, in my best spot, and croaking.
Those rain years had cut the pressure that rut without all the other hunters about the deer were out.
I shot a meaty the week previous, a tender yearling doe, also heard a great red roar, but too far off to stalk in.
The stars aligned for that rut, but I am not a rut fan really, just too many others are there.
Met a few good blokes, but prefer to see no one.

My trophy would just be a cull buck to someone like Dylan Smith (Wilderlife), but he and his mates are lucky enough to have that access and manage the herds as well as they can for improvement.
Mine had one great antler, but the other is smaller with no second tine at all, missing rather than broken.
He may have had an injury, or even been shot before.

I have seen other great bucks, 2 together in October and a great head with a multi coloured coat during the rut with does.
Only about a 3 yo and I just stopped, sat and watched to see him again, and I did, so well worth not taking a doe.

I haven't heard a word from the ISC Jack Rougth liar about bird flu, but he is currently pushing hard in Vic .
Deer is where the money is,it seems.

I hunt deer, but I also love the animals; they are just so interesting, and the best challenge to see and hunt in the forests.

[Damo300]

Have a go at the palms on that fallow...
I'd find that hard to shoot tbh.
Beasts.

[Wapiti]

It's bloody hard Damo.
You work so hard keeping these animals alive and away from people that would just shoot them over the fence if they got too close, and although they are wild and roam around your patch you always worry about them.
So around your boundaries, you have to have wide strip paddocks of 100's or acres with cattle in them, plenty of water and feed so from the outside the greedy shooters just drive on past and never see what's inside.
Will they be around next rut to breed still, or maybe you don't want them going over their own blood so you try and move them, then the time comes, what do you do with them. I let them go in a 2700 acre mountainous paddock with gorges, rock holes and steep bluffs where I guarantee, it would take a fit hunter days to just walk around the boundary of, and most "hunters" could not even move through. But still people say "canned hunt" whilst they struggle to get up from behind the screen in their hand.
Bringing in new blood at costs as much as a second-hand Landcruiser, watching the great outcomes and the f*ckups and the highs and lows.

I don't know how places like Venator in NZ do it with such enthusiasm, there's costs in the 100's of 1000's of dollars in the management and protecting the animals in those pics, so you don't get to take them for free.
Luckily for them, they are providing for a market where those wanting a play are in a long line of people, most who will never get to the front of the line.

But at least, people who can get past their own biases and ignorance, and hey that ignorance is completely understandable with the grubs and grifters on social media ruining the reality fir the rest of those genuinely interested... can see what an animal has when it is allowed to mature and real QDM actually is.
Compare that with what's on offer locally at a price, juvenile animals sold for fast profit to keep the cash register ticking, all the while being told they are lucky to be a part of it.

My aim is just to show what can be done with patience and from people who have a huge degree of patience and drive to show what can be done. I mean, we all have a passion right? I hope so.

[Wapiti]

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We had a big laugh looking at the comments under this post.
The place is directly over Lake Wanaka from friends at Minaret Station.
Our minds boggle at the decades of effort getting to this point, to end with a bang.

[bigrich]

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We had a big laugh looking at the comments under this post.
The place is directly over Lake Wanaka from friends at Minaret Station.
Our minds boggle at the decades of effort getting to this point, to end with a bang.

man , that is a fine, extraordinary animal . dunno if i could shoot a majestic stag like that. besides, i don't think i'd have a wall and ceiling big enough to mount a rack like that on

[Wapiti]

700 points mate, that's $100K plus, I'd guess.
Not for everyone, of course not. What amazed me is that there are way more people waiting to have a go than there are animals, who will actually outbid each other to jump the queue.

But just like there's weekenders running a few 'nag" cows for themselves, nobody else and it being a great thing to get into and benefit from and keep them away from the supermarket rip-off a little longer.
Then there's the cattle studs breeding and selling animals from zero to hero that run double the weight at weaning, in almost half the time... with breeding stock they sell in the 100's of 1000's.
The weekender homesteader isn't interested in these high-performance cattle, why would they be. They don't care what they look like, and probably also don't care how long it takes their animals to get to kill weight or the marbling score or the tender score or anything else. It isn't a factor.
They'll buy any weaner from the pig-'n-calf sale. Perfect.
I'm saying this because deer hunting is exactly the same.

There are those that cater for the big end of town, they aren't interested in 4x5, 5x5, a Royal is what? A joke. It's providing for a market, and the satisfaction of doing what you dream to do. How they do it gets respect from me anyway.
I can say one thing, there are more people wanting to have a go here in Aus as there are opportunities, that's a fact.
And plenty of big talkers that say they are down there with the everyday hunter but secretly save their pennies and pretend they just hunted hard and "their skill was the defining factor".
I'll have a look for the pic we took of a stag that, head caped on a pallet in the Alpine Helicopters coldrooms, cost one hunter $100K just to shoot it, let alone what comes afterwards. And it was nothing like those above.

[bigrich]

700 points mate, that's $100K plus, I'd guess.
Not for everyone, of course not. What amazed me is that there are way more people waiting to have a go than there are animals, who will actually outbid each other to jump the queue.

But just like there's weekenders running a few 'nag" cows for themselves, nobody else and it being a great thing to get into and benefit from and keep them away from the supermarket rip-off a little longer.
Then there's the cattle studs breeding and selling animals from zero to hero that run double the weight at weaning, in almost half the time... with breeding stock they sell in the 100's of 1000's.
The weekender homesteader isn't interested in these high-performance cattle, why would they be. They don't care what they look like, and probably also don't care how long it takes their animals to get to kill weight or the marbling score or the tender score or anything else. It isn't a factor.
They'll buy any weaner from the pig-'n-calf sale. Perfect.
I'm saying this because deer hunting is exactly the same.

There are those that cater for the big end of town, they aren't interested in 4x5, 5x5, a Royal is what? A joke. It's providing for a market, and the satisfaction of doing what you dream to do. How they do it gets respect from me anyway.
I can say one thing, there are more people wanting to have a go here in Aus as there are opportunities, that's a fact.
And plenty of big talkers that say they are down there with the everyday hunter but secretly save their pennies and pretend they just hunted hard and "their skill was the defining factor".
I'll have a look for the pic we took of a stag that, head caped on a pallet in the Alpine Helicopters coldrooms, cost one hunter $100K just to shoot it, let alone what comes afterwards. And it was nothing like those above.

for me personally , my priorities and views have changed as i've gotten more experienced over the years . i mainly hunt for the adventure out bush , the people i meet and the things i learn from them, the new things i see with different animals and behaviour at times that surprises me . like the wedgie that circled a small mob of "paddock rats" when he saw me out in the paddock. i nailed a small one he was gliding over the top of, he circled and landed on it , probably happy he'd set up a situation where he got a feed .
i've done a red stag hunt north of brissy and been up NT for buff . both paid/guided hunts , with nice trophies on my wall . bit of a bucket list thing to do and i'm glad i did , but that's enough of that for me now . it means much more to me to stalk in on a large cunning boar or nail a nice nanny goat for good meat than a trophy on the wall . the effort taken on a personal hunt means more to me than just paying the money to shoot a trophy , but i do yearn to get a bigger set of boar hooks on my wall as these critters are smart, dangerous , and cause a lot of damage .
with regards to the adventure and people i meet , after many years of seeing deer and having them vanish and being extremely elusive , i found it quite surreal to visit a fella , who when showing me around his property , i had to shoo 30-40 fallow deer away from a paddock gate to open it

[Wapiti]

Nothing wrong with paying someone for being able to hunt on private land, as you mention you have done it heaps of times and continue to do so.

I can see how much easier it would be to just never have to worry about the time, expenses and efforts others put into their properties, and just be able to get away from the city where most would rather live and work and enjoy everything close-by, and then occasionally get away from that and go out for a different experience and then just return home to the urban life.
And leave all the 24hrs a day, 7 days a week job of primary production. I get it, because you can't do both without splitting into two, or never achieving anything.
I've never charged a hunter for coming on here and having fun, ever.

But as a bloke who breeds different animals, deer for 20 years now and still not an expert compared to others I am humbled by.
So I put up a bit of info about how, when animals are left alone and with a bit of help removing the inbreeding and slow genetical retardation we as humans have engineered into these breeds due mainly to self-acknowledgement and profit, how they bounce back in genetic strength.

We've (as a self-imposed greedy way) been killing the best animals off that should be the ones making the breeds stronger, leaving the weak to slowly retard the species so much that when examples like the ones I've put up that have been allowed to grow out, to turn this greed and mismanagement around, people thing these animals have been made in an AI machine or fed "hormones" that have never existed.
These animals are getting back to the best of the species, not what everyone else has been force-fed is the norm. Not everyone is going to get that or even want to face it either, but I put it up anyway for those that are interested.

[Wapiti]

We hosted a group of committee members from an incorporated hunting club all day yesterday, and it was really nice to see and hear that they were gobsmacked by what they saw and what we have achieved. They see it all, and I just will add that to what I have found out by continuing to have a go.
If I listened to the "experts" online only, that have been bombarding everyone with misinformation for years, I might just believe it too.

[bigrich]

We hosted a group of committee members from an incorporated hunting club all day yesterday, and it was really nice to see and hear that they were gobsmacked by what they saw and what we have achieved. They see it all, and I just will add that to what I have found out by continuing to have a go.
If I listened to the "experts" online only, that have been bombarding everyone with misinformation for years, I might just believe it too.

ADA perhaps ? i've met a few at the comps between ssaa ripley and the ADA over the years, some nice folks

[Fester]

700 points mate, that's $100K plus, I'd guess.
Not for everyone, of course not. What amazed me is that there are way more people waiting to have a go than there are animals, who will actually outbid each other to jump the queue.

But just like there's weekenders running a few 'nag" cows for themselves, nobody else and it being a great thing to get into and benefit from and keep them away from the supermarket rip-off a little longer.
Then there's the cattle studs breeding and selling animals from zero to hero that run double the weight at weaning, in almost half the time... with breeding stock they sell in the 100's of 1000's.
The weekender homesteader isn't interested in these high-performance cattle, why would they be. They don't care what they look like, and probably also don't care how long it takes their animals to get to kill weight or the marbling score or the tender score or anything else. It isn't a factor.
They'll buy any weaner from the pig-'n-calf sale. Perfect.
I'm saying this because deer hunting is exactly the same.

There are those that cater for the big end of town, they aren't interested in 4x5, 5x5, a Royal is what? A joke. It's providing for a market, and the satisfaction of doing what you dream to do. How they do it gets respect from me anyway.
I can say one thing, there are more people wanting to have a go here in Aus as there are opportunities, that's a fact.
And plenty of big talkers that say they are down there with the everyday hunter but secretly save their pennies and pretend they just hunted hard and "their skill was the defining factor".
I'll have a look for the pic we took of a stag that, head caped on a pallet in the Alpine Helicopters coldrooms, cost one hunter $100K just to shoot it, let alone what comes afterwards. And it was nothing like those above.

for me personally , my priorities and views have changed as i've gotten more experienced over the years . i mainly hunt for the adventure out bush , the people i meet and the things i learn from them, the new things i see with different animals and behaviour at times that surprises me . like the wedgie that circled a small mob of "paddock rats" when he saw me out in the paddock. i nailed a small one he was gliding over the top of, he circled and landed on it , probably happy he'd set up a situation where he got a feed .
i've done a red stag hunt north of brissy and been up NT for buff . both paid/guided hunts , with nice trophies on my wall . bit of a bucket list thing to do and i'm glad i did , but that's enough of that for me now . it means much more to me to stalk in on a large cunning boar or nail a nice nanny goat for good meat than a trophy on the wall . the effort taken on a personal hunt means more to me than just paying the money to shoot a trophy , but i do yearn to get a bigger set of boar hooks on my wall as these critters are smart, dangerous , and cause a lot of damage .
with regards to the adventure and people i meet , after many years of seeing deer and having them vanish and being extremely elusive , i found it quite surreal to visit a fella , who when showing me around his property , i had to shoo 30-40 fallow deer away from a paddock gate to open it

Yeah, for me, what happens on the farm can stay on the farm.

Big money trophy hunting as well, it's not for me, or normal Australians.
In my view, the whole world trade type thing is why we are in such a mess.
It started by going with the big OS $ and spread to everything going to tourist prices, with normal Aussies just having to cop it.
Look at the results now that it has spread to our own food supplies, the gas and power prices.
Our country could have done well, despite needing O/S investment.
Instead, it went to corruption, and every federal minister got rich, instead of our country benefiting.

Back to the hunting, if I see a great buck or stag, I want to appreciate getting eyes on a representative animal from the area, not see something unnaturally huge and think what farm grew that thing.

Even on a productive paid property hunt I did once, more to see for myself and do some different luxury hunting, just walk, or drive from the good accommodation, the bucks were just average to the area, nothing special in the 4 or 5 I saw.
The area gets hunted, and the hills have lots of ferals and roos.
It was just a normal farmer, and I was lucky to find it and him.

I once saw tiny-bodied fallow bucks with huge heads on a small farm, but that's a farm thing.

I hate seeing blokes post a huge Water Valley buck but talk like it was taken in a normal hunting situation.
Generally no reply when a bloke hangs sh_t on them and says "nice Water Valley buck"

I would love to hunt the NT or top end, but big money is the only real way to do that, and I am happy to just chase deer.
Will just have to drive further and camp in more productive areas of the forest.
We don't know how much longer public land hunting has under corrupt woke and greens rule so I had better get off my ass and do it now.

When I was starting my hunting adventures and found success in the first years, luckily.
I heard a top-end guide say they avoid Aussies and stick with the big money hunters from the USA.
I think their fear was that local hunters just return without paying.
I bet the Covid changed their views lol

Each to their own, and if you own enough land and have the resources and dedication to do stuff like these farmed trophy deer, good on you.
Still, I don't go by labelling everyone with different views, as that is much the same as shooters being their own worst enemies.
I am OK as I can always shoot on my property.
The club Fudds are OK as they only need their Omarks and 22s.
Well what do they then come for? Watch them squeel then, but too late.

We will just tell the farmers that they will be OK, then we will bring in the new pro-shooters scheme, as they can still use guns.
Tell me I was dreaming in hindsight.

Funny, but I talked a fair bit to the farmer and asked if he knew what he was in for with the pest animals and such.
He was not into hunting, just butchery, and pest control with his .223.
When I asked if he was going to get a bigger rifle for the bigger critters, he replied no, as he doesn't like the way it's heading regarding guns in this country.

Sorry for the thread drift and rant, but better to keep the discussion going than it die off, and it's always going to happen on forum threads.