SAPOL requires justification - PTA's now in the dark

[Finn-Sako]

Quote form a dealer web page in SA. Does anyone have any information on this, and what might this justification entail - It appears that the PTA system in SA is now going backwards and into the Dark Ages, it's not even available online....

FIREARMS PERMIT TO ACQUIRE NOTICE

SAPOL Firearms Branch are currently asking Firearm Owners purchasing second and subsequent firearms to show JUSTIFICATION for purchase !!! This is for Licence Class B firearms
We STRONGLY SUGGEST you contact SAPOL
Phone 7322 3346 (if busy leave a message)
Email: [email protected]
Write to Firearms Branch GPO Box 1539 ADELAIDE

Requesting information on this matter before lodging a PD306 Permit To Acquire

[subatom]

So we're turning into WA.

Fantastic.

[on_one_wheel]

Another attack on LAFO's, do your job SApol and stop criminals not us, but don't worry we can expect much more of this if we choose to snob the SSAA and shooters and fishers party because we don't need their help do we people... Nooooo, we are going to do all our lobbying as individuals.

[Finn-Sako]

This Adelaide firearms dealer reports, on another site, that:

Several permits have been returned to our customers in the last few days not approved from Firearms Branch due to the firearm being Class B or H and that they already have a firearm registered under that category.

Some of our customers only have 1 firearm registered to them in that class.

Firearms Branch want justification why you require another firearm if you already have a gun in that same class.

Not good for our customers and definitely not good for the gun shops

The South Australian PTA's would now be delayed as no one at the moment would probably know, apart from SAPOL, what kind of justification it exactly is, that they want for subsequent firearms, and how detailed the justification is supposed to be, and in what kind of form or shape they would accept this information (written or by phone..)

Hopefully next week we would know more.

There appears to be no dialogue between SAPOL and firearms dealers on this, not to mention clubs or anyone else.... Not how you would expect things to go.

[pajamatime]

wow...when i thought they couldn't be anymore stupid.

[sbd3927]

Well the PDF version of SA regs I found had no definition of categories of firearms at all.

Elsewhere...

Class B: Muzzle loading firearms (not being handguns); revolving chamber rifles; centrefire (not self-loading); break action shotgun/rifle combinations. All other firearms not class A firearms (not being prescribed firearms, handguns, self-loading or pump action shotguns), including receivers.

Although it doesn't pay to rock the boat, I would be sorely tempted to send back a query as to the qualifications of someone that cannot understand the difference in application of for example a shotgun vs a centrefire rifle. Asking for reason for the firearm is fair enough i suppose, but to say they already have one of that class is ridiculous.

[nords]

wow...when i thought they couldn't be anymore stupid.

C'mon now be serious...

They can always be more stupid

[Hadoku]

So we're turning into WA.

Fantastic.

Yeah good luck with that

[jordy]

SAPOL Firearms Branch are currently asking Firearm Owners purchasing second and subsequent firearms to show JUSTIFICATION for purchase !!! This is for Licence Class B firearms

Just to be clear... Is that meant to mean second firearm of the same calibre?

Or having more than 1 firearm total?

[Supporter]

Put up a good fight over this one chaps.

You don't want to end up like we are here.

[Bourt]

Hopefully Shooters & Fishers Party and/or SSAA step up to bat on this one for you blokes.

As best I can find in the SA firearms act there is no legislation to support this. Nothing even like the WA style "in the opinion of the Commissioner...." line the're using to ban the Savage 110BA etc.

If it isn't legislation they can't just arbitrarily decide they wan't better justification that has previously been acceptable. Not legally anyway, whether or not they dick everyone around for a few months until it gets pulled is another matter.

On that... Any SA blokes actually had a PTA refused on this basis so far?

Could just be media bluster they're hoping people will fall for and not push the issue to have their rightful application approved.

Really interested to know if anyone's been knocked back so far.

[tom604]

Really interested to know if anyone's been knocked back so far.

So would I... Is the dealer from WA? Haven't heard anything about this? Which dealer?

[Skadoo]

Just to be clear... Is that meant to mean second firearm of the same calibre?

Or having more than 1 firearm total?

Apparently Adelaide Gun Shop have had customer permits rejected because they had 1 of the category.

Not even one .308 and wanted another .308. Had a category B and couldn't get another.

Several permits have been returned to our customers in the last few days not approved from Firearms Branch due to the firearm being Class B or H and that they already had a firearm registered under that category. Some of our customers only have 1 firearm registered to them in that class.

Firearms branch want justification why you require another firearm if you already have a gun in that same class.

Not good for our customers and definitely not good for gun shops.

So if you have a .204 and want a .300WM to go deer hunting apparently you should take your bunny buster because both being Cat B makes them the same

Complete BS.

[Grated]

Great...

So much for that Christmas present.

[Jackboot_Johnny]

Hi Guys,

Write in about this issue!

Section 15A of the firearms act that they are quoting on the new PTA form, does not require you to justify a genuine reason to the police every time you buy a class B firearm. It only states that they may reject your application if they don't believe you have a genuine reason. They don't have much to stand on here imo as your genuine reason is clearly outlined in the conditions of your license of which they already have access to.

Below is a letter that I've had a bit of help with that I'm planning to send in this week. Take some inspiration from it if you want.

The Registrar
Firearms Registry
South Australian Police

CC: The Attorney General of the State of South Australia, the Right Honourable Mr John Rau
CC: Minister for Police, the Right Honourable Mr Tony Piccolo
CC: Shadow Minister for Police, the Right Honourable Mr John Gardner

I want to voice my disappointment and concerns over the recent changes to the PTA process. I would like to understand why the Firearms Branch has decided to reject permits to acquire and ask for written justification for purchases of class B or H firearms?

My review of the Firearms Act (1977) (SA) highlights Section 15A(2)

Subject to this Act, where the application is for a permit to acquire a class B firearm
and the application is properly made the Registrar may only refuse the application if—
(a) the Registrar is of the opinion that the applicant does not have a genuine reason for acquiring the firearm; or
(b) the Registrar is entitled to refuse the application under subsection (1).

This is clearly intended to be applied on a case by case basis (the applicant), not as a blanket approach for all applications. This is a matter of law, not interpretation. Based on the information I have available to me, it appears that you have chosen to enforce s15A(2) on all applications for Category B or H firearms purchases.

In particular I object to the new words placed on the revised form to apply for a permit to acquire.
If applying for a Class B firearm, you must provide the Registrar with information to justify your request to purchase that firearm (genuine reason to acquire) refer to Section 15A(2) of the Firearms Act.

Section 15A(2) of the Firearms Act it does not create a mandate for the Registrar to require every application to be justified as the new PTA form requires, only those from an applicant that the registrar is of the opinion that the applicant does not have a genuine reason for acquiring the firearm. I believe that your application of this Section of the Firearms Act is improper as the Act only states that you may reject my application and create an additional burden on me if in your opinion I do not have a genuine reason to purchase that firearm. To generate your opinion, you must consider my application for a PTA individually and personally. The new PTA application form imposes that additional burden unilaterally.

As a firearms owner who uses legal means to acquire a new firearm, I have fulfilled all of the legal requirements asked of me, I’ve applied for my hunting permits, I’ve joined the appropriate clubs, I’ve done the mandatory training, I store my firearms in a secure and safe manner and I have indicated on the existing form the purpose for which I need the firearm. My genuine reason for requesting to purchase a firearm of the appropriate class is clearly stated on my licence, it has also been marked on the PTA itself under the PURPOSE OF USE tick box section.

I cannot understand what value is added by asking for further justification when you have the information available to you already on file and on the form itself? Why would you want to create more paperwork on an already understaffed and overstretched system? Given the substantial constraints that the Firearms Registry operates under I am surprised that you have chosen to add yet another complexity to the process of approving a PTA from a licenced firearms owner who already has a firearm of that type. I cannot understand how this arbitrary addition to a multitude of applications for a Permit To Acquire improves law enforcement efforts to rid society of unlicensed firearms, unlawful possession of firearms (of any category) or how it will improve the safety of the South Australian public in any way. Those who seek to acquire a gun without using a PTA (i.e. illegally) will not be burdened by this imposition at all.

I ask that you reconsider this additional burden on the licenced firearms owners of South Australia, and the additional burden that it places on your hard working and extremely polite staff.

I ask that you remember that just as a golfer cannot successfully play a round with one club, so too a shooter may have need for different firearms for different purposes. There is no single wonder gun that fulfils all competition, hunting or working needs.

My friends and the wider shooting community have interpreted this new policy as an unwarranted attack on legal shooting sports and hunting activities by the firearms branch. We are concerned that this may drive a wedge between the police and the law abiding firearms owners of this state, when the ultimate goal should for both shooters and the police to have a mutual respect and support for each other.

We are concerned that legal shooters are being punished by an incorrect interpretation of the Firearms Act in a worthless attempt to create a barrier for the illegal firearms trade.

I look forward to your response on the matter.

For those that are wanting to send in a letter here are some contact details I've dug up

Tony Piccolo MP - Minister for Police
Phone: 08 8463 6641
Fax: 08 8463 6642
Email: [email protected]
Postal Address:
GPO Box 668
ADELAIDE SA 5000

John Gardner MP - Shadow Minister for Police
Phone (08) 8365 4224
Fax (08) 8365 4225
E-mail [email protected]
Postal address:
63 St Bernards Rd,
Rostrevor
SA 5073

SA Firearms Branch
Phone 7322 3346
Email [email protected]
Postal Address:
GPO BOX 1539,
ADELAIDE SA 5001

Attorney-General's Department
John Rau MP
Postal: GPO Box 464, Adelaide SA 5001
Phone: (08) 8207 1555
Email: [email protected]

[brisb]

Putting in some serious effort for your state there Johnny.

Kudos.

[on_one_wheel]

READ PART 3 ,SECTION 4a

15—Application for permit
(1) An application for a permit authorising the acquisition of a firearm—
(a) must be made to the Registrar in the prescribed manner and form; and
(b) must contain the prescribed information.
(2) The Registrar may require an applicant—
(a) to furnish such further information as may be necessary to enable the
Registrar to determine the application; or
(b) to verify by statutory declaration information furnished in relation to the
application.
(3) Subject to subsections (4) and (4a) a permit authorising the acquisition of a firearm
can only be granted—
(a) after the expiration of 28 days after the application for the permit was made;
(b) if the applicant holds a firearms licence that authorises possession of the
firearm.
Firearms Act 1977—7.2.2014
Part 3—Possession and trafficking of firearms and licensing of dealers
Division 2AA—Permit for acquisition of firearm
28 This version is not published under the Legislation Revision and Publication Act 2002 [7.2.2014]
(4) The Registrar may grant a permit before the expiration of 28 days after the application
for the permit was made if the Registrar is satisfied that it is safe to do so and that
there are special reasons for doing so.
(4a) If the applicant for a permit is the owner of a registered firearm of the same class as
that to be acquired under the permit, the Registrar must grant the permit as soon as
practicable after receiving the application.
(5) A licence, to the extent that it authorises possession of a firearm for the purposes of
employment by a person carrying on the business of guarding property is not
sufficient for the purposes of subsection (3)(b) to justify the granting of a permit to
acquire a firearm.
(8) The period for which a permit remains in force must be set out in the permit.
15A—Reasons for refusal of permit
(1) Subject to this section the Registrar may refuse an application for a permit to acquire a
firearm of any class if he or she is satisfied that—
(a) the firearm is particularly dangerous by reason of its design, construction or
any other factor; or
(b) the firearm can easily be converted to an automatic firearm; or
(c) the firearm is, by reason of its size or any other factor, more readily concealed
than other firearms of the same class and is for that, or any other reason,
particularly suited to unlawful use; or
(d) the applicant has in the past acquired a firearm that he or she has failed to
produce to the Registrar for registration in accordance with this Act or has
been guilty of any other offence against this Act.
(2) Subject to this Act, where the application is for a permit to acquire a class B firearm
and the application is properly made the Registrar may only refuse the application if—
(a) the Registrar is of the opinion that the applicant does not have a genuine
reason for acquiring the firearm; or
(b) the Registrar is entitled to refuse the application under subsection (1).

I am guessing its purely a delay tactic for the Christmas holidays as most non operation critical staff will be taking leave.

I won't be jumping on the bandwagon untill I have a pta rejected myself, there could also be a reson certain people have had their pta's rejected.

[keen]

I won't be jumping on the bandwagon untill I have a pta rejected myself, there could also be a reson certain people have had their pta's rejected.

That's a good point.

I've just put in an application for a second .308 for a target rifle.

We'll see what happens...

[brett1868]

Lucky I don't live in S.A cause if I had to be honest on the PTA about the reason I need another rifle I'd have to state it was for medical reasons. Not sure how they'd react to that one but "Small Man Syndrome" has been classified as a medical condition. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/10603195/Short-man-syndrome-really-does-exist-Oxford-University-finds.html Instead of wasting valuable tax payers money on Medicare I self medicate by buying big guns and vaporising bunnies. It's a win-win for the taxpayer and farmer alike. Tell them you need a another rifle to protect the government from a budget blow out on health care.

[Jackboot_Johnny]

Putting in some serious effort for your state there Johnny.

Kudos.

Thanks

I won't be jumping on the bandwagon untill I have a pta rejected myself, there could also be a reson certain people have had their pta's rejected.

Unfortunately I've already had a mate who had their PTA rejected. He's now sent in his "justification" letter and wont hear back until next year I guess.

[1886]

Congrats for taking a stand.

But I must confess I am at a bit of a loss what your point is unless there is good reason to assume this is leading to you guys only having one Cat B, which I very much doubt.

IMHO your interpretation of the Regs/Act etc is a little off beam as I can't see any valid point being made and some just don't make sense, eg.

Section 15A(2) of the Firearms Act it does not create a mandate for the Registrar to require every application to be justified as the new PTA form requires, only those from an applicant that the registrar is of the opinion that the applicant does not have a genuine reason for acquiring the firearm.

Off course it does. So the registrar has 20 applications before him. How can he determine which of those is his opinion doesn't have a genuine reason WITHOUT having to look at all of them first or does he just take a handfull guess. I just don't get your argument. He is bound by the legislation to do so.

I think you maybe placing too much emphasis on what you state is already noted on your licence as already being your genuine reason for wanting a firearm ,ie hunting.

All I see that is being stated is that with each application you should also provide additional information to support your application for any additional Cat B be it the same calibre or otherwise. Where's the problem with that as its easy to do, I don't see it ??

Without this supporting information then you yourself are ensuring your application will be rejected as you have not supplied a genuine reason why you need this particular firearm and that to me would seem to be a self defeating dumb move.

For example, your mate is now sending info that he wants another 308 for target shooting and if he's added stuff like it will have specific sights for target shooting etc etc then I'm betting he will now get it. So the question is why wouldn't you submit this info in the first place as it helps you and he'd probably have the gun by now.

Am I missing something that needs further clarification ???

[sbd3927]

Congrats for taking a stand.

But I must confess I am at a bit of a loss what your point is unless there is good reason to assume this is leading to you guys only having one Cat B, which I very much doubt.

That's precisely the issue, fourth post in this thread.

This Adelaide firearms dealer reports, on another site, that:

Some of our customers only have 1 firearm registered to them in that class.

Firearms Branch want justification why you require another firearm if you already have a gun in that same class.

A longer explanation may help them, but a 22-250 owner that bought it for "hunting" Should be able to buy a .270 with the same reason "hunting" Rather than potential confusing the person reviewing the application with a lengthy explanation (ie. more than two words)

How about, Defending the spotted quolls on my 50ha property from being destroyed by 3 legged feral cats (they have 3 legs because my existing category B .22 calibre lacks the accuracy and power for humane kills at ranges over 50m. I will be needing further individual firearms for the remaining four legged cats which move faster, foxes and wild dogs and trust that you can understand that one cat B firearm does not fit all situations.

[Jackboot_Johnny]

Section 15A(2) of the Firearms Act it does not create a mandate for the Registrar to require every application to be justified as the new PTA form requires, only those from an applicant that the registrar is of the opinion that the applicant does not have a genuine reason for acquiring the firearm.

Off course it does. So the registrar has 20 applications before him. How can he determine which of those is his opinion doesn't have a genuine reason WITHOUT having to look at all of them first or does he just take a handfull guess. I just don't get your argument. He is bound by the legislation to do so.

My argument is that I already have my licence which states those genuine reasons, plus the intended purpose of use is already printed on the PTA itself. Why create the need for extra paper work?

What do they base their criteria on for "genuine reason" none of this has been made clear

Like said above, the end game is to limit you to one centrefire.

[1886]

OK, so the real issue is all about procuring another Cat B and it could also mean of the same calibre.

But having your initial licence issued for hunting purpose's surely doesn't automatically mean you can have a host of 50bmg's etc. When you get to applying for a PTA I would think it would be obvious you would need to advise why you need that particular firearm or calibre be it for deer or rabbits etc.

I can understand your concerns but in reality I don't see this as a major issue. Surely, it is common sense that the Police would need to know why you need a particular gun or even another gun exactly the same etc as ordinarily you can't shoot both at the same time . But we all know there are very valid reasons for this and thus it can easily be favourably argued.

I guess time will tell if this eventuates into a situation where you maybe are restricted in Cat B numbers but I don't think this is or will be the case at all as it would be very hard for the Police to justify this stance particularly if hunting.

If you have a 22-250 for basic hunting but want to now hunt camels, then that is not the gun to use and a minimum would be a 30-06. I could not see the Police winning a case as it could easily be pointed out that using a 22-250 on camels would be inhumane etc etc and the same argument can be said for various other species and this can also include the need for different sights.

Guys go on about our WA laws and we also have to supply similar detail and also why another Cat B we may have would not fit the bill etc. But if you have a genuine reason its not a problem, eg I have 2 x 45/70's, 3 x 357 Mags and numerous others but although these are the same calibres each was required for different reasons and there was no problem whatsoever in getting them licenced. Two of the 357 are identical firearms and my reasons was purely to be able to have different sights installed on each.

But our main problem now is the time it takes due to this all being centralised and not adequately staffed.

It's not hard to include a note advising you need a 30-06 to now hunt camels as you're 222 won't cut it as it would be inhumane etc or you need another 308 so you can install a scope for long range hunting versus your small barrelled 308 that you use for close range scrub hunting.

IMHO, even though its also required here I have found that including a short or even a long explanatory note always works for you and never against you and it only takes a few minutes.

The way I see it your Police probably haven't been previously following the law entirely correctly but now they are so you have no option and it would be crazy to not do so, versus a further wait while you supply it later.

[subatom]

I don't by the understaffed thing as a reason or this being a delaying tactic.

If your flat out approve it and be done with it. Denying it just means more work for you later.

They're not that stupid surely... Hopefully.

[Rossi]

Are you allowed to send Firearms Branch your justification for a subsequent Class B firearm in email format instead of a hard copy paper posted by mail? Surely either or is acceptable.

I dropped my PTA in to the cops before I knew you had to now send in a justification letter. Luckily when I spoke to Firearms Branch they said my application hadn't been processed yet so I thought I'd sneak in my justification to them as an email. Hopefully they'll read my email before they process my PTA and approve because I don't want them to reject my PTA forcing me to have to send in another PTA with a letter, and then wait yet another month for an approved PTA for a perfectly legal and legitimate firearm because of these silly administrative burdens.

Time will tell I guess...

[Jack V]

Sounds like a variation on the "genuine reason to acquire " that we are victimised with in NSW . My advice is if it does get applied across the board get advice on wording your "justification "and save a copy for future reference so every letter in future is worded differently to supply a different justification for each along the lines advised by 1886 .

[Harper]

My advice is if it does get applied across the board get advice on wording your "justification "and save a copy for future reference so every letter in future is worded differently to supply a different justification for each along the lines advised by 1886 .

You're forced to do that to get a PTA through these day?

[andym79]

Any more information on this?

Has anyone had there PTA approved, since the change in policy? My last PTA was approve about a week prior!

[subatom]

I was following AGS for another update but nothing so far.