Concealed Carry in Australia

[David Brown]

And another news item I just stumbled across. The headline was not obvious at first. All these defenceless women………..

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-l ... 7335961858

CC and training.

[Title_II]

The problem is that you have to allow for the stupidest people in our society. I interact daily with people I wouldn't trust with a pen let alone a firearm. You can't just exclude them though because that defeats the purpose of having a right to self defence if you can pick and choose who has it.

Here is the thing - It doesn't happen.

I know how you feel. There was a time that I felt that way, too. I felt that even though I supported carry and self defense, I knew that there would be a price that would go along with it.

There isn't. Trust me, we have plenty of stupid people I don't trust with a gun in the States But they have guns, and they carry them, And nothing bad happens. It is surprising but it is true and well hashed out at this point. There is plenty of data from millions of people and different societies, climates, people, urban, suburban, rural, it just doesn't cause any problems.

I have a friend that I have known for about 8 years now. He told me a story about a year ago that included some behavior I considered uncharacteristic of him. Surprised, I inquired, "Wow, you used to raise a little hell, eh?" He responded: "That was before I carried." It's pretty much a universal story. Even the dumbest, biggest A-hole straightens out a bit when they start carrying a firearm for self defense. It's actually the opposite of what I expected. I always expected that the responsible would become more responsible and the jerks would merely become emboldened. For some reason that does not happen.

[Seik]

That's something I have felt was lacking here too.

Making anything mandatory is a slippery slope but in the past I think we could have done with some better best practices and training culture when it came to firearms.

This might be cherry picking examples here which isn't fair but here it is for what it's worth.

I agree parts of the gun culture there are definitely problematic. I'm sure we've all seen the videos on youtube, there are hundreds of them, of shooters in the US behaving in ways I've never seen or heard of here.

A few that come to mind....

Giving a new shooter a far too powerful gun and no preparation and snickering and laughing behind the camera waiting for them to fire and scope themselves or have the rifle/pistol fly out of their hands.

Handing over something like an AK on full-auto to someone who's never fired a gun before and then sure enough they lose control and can't release the trigger and spray a magazine into the sky or over the heads of the rest of the people on the firing line.

There is one I can think of of a guy who's smashed drunk, can literally barely stand, trying to shoot a shotgun straight and his friends think it's hysterical when he fires and knocks himself over. Shotgun sweeps them all but no one seems to notice.

The list goes on.

Half the things they think are hilarious, if you did here your mates would take your gun off you until you settled down and you'd probably get a punch in the face for good measure. And you never see the behaviour anyway (had to say that before the Greens reading got too excited and started saying we do the same).

I'm not trying to sound anti-US but that's the way I've seen it.

[ChicagoTed]

theres around 90 million gun owners in 'Murica
things like that are bound to show up

[anthillinside]

^^^ Yes a lot of people just can't comprehend the scale of the population difference and it's effect on perception.
It's easy enough to find a few nutters in our 23 million population and their the ones that get the attention,
In a population of over 300 million you don't have to look to far to find examples of absolutely anything.
We have to remember it's the 1% that get noticed, the 99% silent majority are just like you and me,
Great news story: Today an average guy had an average day and didn't do anything that other people want to see or talk about.
Think about it. 3 times our population of gun owners, no where near our restrictions, hand guns freely available etc. etc
So with the "American Gun Culture" "Wild West mentality" Mass Shootings" that we hear from our media all the time ... when there are protests and in extreme cases riots where there is understandably high emotions and tensions why don't we see pitched gun battles in the streets?
Because with freedom comes responsibility, the 99% understand that.
Our problem is the more we are treated like children the less responsibility we accept.
Present company excluded

[Title_II]

There is no doubt there are a lot of bozos in the US. Keep in mind that firearm handling is always more dangerous than firearm carry. A modern handgun and holster combination has very little chance of pointing at your head and almost zero chance of "going off." People who bother to take training to carry or fight with handguns are taught that the most dangerous thing you can do with them (outside of a fight) is to handle them. It is done in private or on the line, pointed in a safe direction, with careful deliberation.

Some guy at the range who doesn't know the safety rules or which end is the ouchie end is a lot more dangerous than somebody with a Glock in an IWB holster at the store. And when you see these people, trust me, we either correct them or we leave when we run across them. And usually don't come back to that place. Keep in mind that there are a lot of places to shoot that don't have any onsite administration. If some buffoon with a gun doesn't want to hear what you have to say it's sometimes a better idea to leave than to approach him to trade punches. There is a time and a place for everything

[1290]

This open carry / concealed carry / longarm / handgun....business in the USA is crazy....I know there have been numerous an increasingly so - legal challenges, state by state these stringent rules are getting turned over...

Me personally - I firmly believe that law abiding citizens should have the right to carry a firearm, to defend themselves and more so the people around them should the situation arise. Should it be concealed? Until the time arrives that the media ceases to indoctrinate the psychology in the main stream population that guns = crime, then when one is seen in public, lawfully carried or not - a call to 000 will go out and a bunch of roided up psychos will jump on the rear bumber outstand of a landcruiser and arrive to 'fix' the situation...MP5 and AR15 on hand.....<<read out increasingly militarised VerySOG police>>

The least 'provocative' carry would be concealed, but the very word 'concealed' is used with connotations of wrong-doing.... if your hiding that pistol then surely you're intending to rob the local 7-11!!!

So many people are so scared of firearms in the community, the most outspoken are generally the 'law enforcers' (who we used to consider, and remain according to their oath PEACE officers..) and of course the law makers.... the politicians.

<<by all means the countless police officer reading these posts chip in here>>

Why?
-Law enforcers / Police like to operate with an absolute monopoly on force.
-Law makers / our 'elected' representatives, and who they actually represent is debatable ... like to operate without threat to their tyrannical ways.... ways that the people wont complain about as long as the footy is played on the weekend, the welfare payments arrive, and the Westfields are open to accept the endless credit expenditure...

[David Brown]

The benefit of concealed is that in a nasty situation your concealed weapon is not known to the bad guys until you decide to enter the game. If it is visible, someone yells out to "you with the gun do something" and you have lost your advantage and immediately drawn into a fight.

CC is the best answer.

I had a great chat with my friendly bank folk today……when she apologised for the wait I said not a problem, just on my way to pickup some ammo. She was stunned at the fact anyone buys ammo……they are great folk there so we got talking and about the recent case in Chicago. One of the girls looked up the Uba driver story and all of a sudden they realised this was not what we get on the news. When asked what defines would you have against a rape or violent attacker, or the increased threat of some beheading terrorist and that violent crime in Chicago and Detroit has rapidly dropped since CC, they all started thinking very differently.

Some rational discussion without all the hype opened their eyes. Of course they all know me very well, and I am a well mannered well dressed sensible business owner, not a toothless redneck as depicted by the media.

Perception is everything. How we portray ourselves and our sport matters.

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

[brett1868]

Perception is everything. How we portray ourselves and our sport matters.

Well stated...

[headspace]

In an ideal world we could all walk around carrying whatever we wanted and as everyone was armed no one would initiate. It's a bit like the nuclear weapon thing. However we are highly unlikely to ever get either concealed or open carry in this country for the many reasons already stated. As an ex soldier who did get a lot of training in a wide range of weapons, I can tell you there is still a thing in the military called "rules of engagement" break those rules and you are in a world of trouble. An untrained civilian with a weapon is too big a risk. Imagine if there was some bloke in the Lindt Café engagement with a gun and he decided to cut loose and the turkey with the sawn off responded. I would really like to be able to carry a concealed weapon, but as it's not going to happen just try to stay out of areas that invite problems. Of course if living in the city is that big a problem then get out, and live in the bush, it's nice and quiet here, until I go shoot some wild dogs or foxes.
JD

[trekin]

...................An untrained civilian with a weapon is too big a risk. Imagine if there was some bloke in the Lindt Café engagement with a gun and he decided to cut loose and the turkey with the sawn off responded..............

And that there is the biggest hurdle for those pushing the barrow for defensive carry. Not the words themselves, but the attitude and the belief that (a) mere civilians can't be trained to a level comparable to that of the military or police, and (b), should defensive carry be allowed, then everyone (law abiding and criminal alike) will run out and get tooled up and start shooting up the place at the drop of a hat. Well sunshine, the truth of the matter is, in respect to (a), is that all members of our military and police forces where at some stage merely untrained civilians, and in respect to (b), we already have laws that restrict the legal procession of firearms to those deemed fit and proper by the authorities, and have successfully completed some form of training in the safe handling of firearms. Why then, with this infrastructure now in place, can not self defence be added as a genuine reason, and licences be issued to those who successfully complete the appropriate (comparable) training?

[1290]

In an ideal world we could all walk around carrying whatever we wanted and as everyone was armed no one would initiate. It's a bit like the nuclear weapon thing. However we are highly unlikely to ever get either concealed or open carry in this country for the many reasons already stated. As an ex soldier who did get a lot of training in a wide range of weapons, I can tell you there is still a thing in the military called "rules of engagement" break those rules and you are in a world of trouble. An untrained civilian with a weapon is too big a risk. Imagine if there was some bloke in the Lindt Café engagement with a gun and he decided to cut loose and the turkey with the sawn off responded. I would really like to be able to carry a concealed weapon, but as it's not going to happen just try to stay out of areas that invite problems. Of course if living in the city is that big a problem then get out, and live in the bush, it's nice and quiet here, until I go shoot some wild dogs or foxes.
JD

In an ideal world it would be full of daisies and buttercups, there'd be no crime, no assault no drug or robberies.....

IT is far from ideal, and as long as there is the 'human condition' present, then there will remain people who are pissed off, unhappy with themselves and others, and those, regardless of medical intervention remain will to go out and injure others....

What we deserve is to regain our HUMAN RIGHT of self defence.... which has been stripped away from us, the right to carry a weapon that would provide us with an advantage over the assailant, should need arise. As a weapon I mean ANYTHING, whether a club, a spanner, a cricket bat or even the ultimate equaliser; a firearm.

The situation is deplorable...... the Police officers swear an oath to do the job of the Regent and guarantee the safety of the 'subjects', yep, they are PEACE officers ....... who 'we' have allowed to become black clothed (sorry dark blue) militarised enforcement officers that most people are intimidated by, just as they like it.

We all know the police CAN NOT protect us, what do they say? when seconds count theyre minutes away?? yet THEY have been complicit in the disarming of all of us......when an opinion is sought the police will vehemently protest any measure to loosen firearm or weapon laws.....because "they would be in danger". What did they announce yesterday? They will be wearing BULLET PROOF VESTS (whatever they are) whenever out in public, for their own safety, yet the common people can not even own body armour, which is an article that defends one against the effects of a weapon (not necessarily a firearm!) simply possessing an article so described carry a fine of $35,000 or 2 years in the klink!!! The rationale for this is obviously the police can not have someone with an advantage against them..... channeling Ned....

When it comes to weapons and firearms, the primary consideration is the criminal element......the secondary concern is the majority of society, those that do the right thing and seek no harm to others..... I say this is A$$ about.

[Title_II]

There is a lot of misinformation and hysteria here proven wrong by tens of millions of slightly trained or completely untrained people carrying over decades without any problems. I'm not sure if I am supposed to repeat myself and be misunderstood as arguing or just let my prior posts stand.

Wait - you can go to jail for having body armor? I just saw that while I was typing this.

I'm getting a very bad feeling that your laws have nothing to do with even the appearance of preventing crime.

[Baldrick314]

I'm getting a very bad feeling that your laws have nothing to do with even the appearance of preventing crime.

Our laws are usually based on the ridiculous opinions of the people who push them forward. Further proof: we have ready access to lever action shotguns but pump actions are heavily controlled.

And everyone's personal favourite: if a firearm replicates a military firearm in function or apearance it is illegal. So if you dress up your perfectly legal pump action remington 7600 to look like an AR it suddenly becomes illegal because black guns are scarier.

Seriously our laws are a joke that inconvenience the legal firearms owner and do little to nothing to prevent crime. They're mostly about a token effort to appease the misinformed public

[trekin]

There is a lot of misinformation and hysteria here proven wrong by tens of millions of slightly trained or completely untrained people carrying over decades without any problems. I'm not sure if I am supposed to repeat myself and be misunderstood as arguing or just let my prior posts stand.

Wait - you can go to jail for having body armor? I just saw that while I was typing this.

I'm getting a very bad feeling that your laws have nothing to do with even the appearance of preventing crime.

Someone who gets it. And if it is not too much to ask, what is the actual process anyone would have to go through to be able to conceal carry for self defence in the area that you live in? Just asking out of interest.

[Title_II]

There is a lot of misinformation and hysteria here proven wrong by tens of millions of slightly trained or completely untrained people carrying over decades without any problems. I'm not sure if I am supposed to repeat myself and be misunderstood as arguing or just let my prior posts stand.

Wait - you can go to jail for having body armor? I just saw that while I was typing this.

I'm getting a very bad feeling that your laws have nothing to do with even the appearance of preventing crime.

Someone who gets it. And if it is not too much to ask, what is the actual process anyone would have to go through to be able to conceal carry for self defence in the area that you live in? Just asking out of interest.

Where I live, in the Great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, is about middle of the road as far as states are concerned. We have 50 states of course. 6 states require no license for CC, and that list grows every year. Many more states require no license for Open Carry. 3 States you basically can't carry, plus NYC for most people.

Our process is you download this form:

http://www.co.venango.pa.us/index.php?o ... 88&Itemid=

Fill it out and bring it to the Sheriff's office. Well, that's the way I do it. You could pick up the form there and fill it out there if you want.

When you get to the location of Sheriff's office, it's usually an enormous building with a county court and detention area. You are not allowed to carry a firearm in buildings that contain court facilities in PA. You say, "I have to check a firearm." They open a box on the wall and tell you to put your firearm in the box and they give you a receipt. Then you go inside.

You pay $20 at the admin office, then go to the Sheriff office and show them your $20 receipt and your completed application. They tell you to sit in a chair and take you picture. They run a background check and you leave with your CCW license in under 15 minutes.

You show your receipt at the front entrance and the deputy opens the box so you can grab your sidearm. You turn to him before you grab it and ask if there are any really nice 1911s in the other boxes that might go missing if you gave him $100 for an upgrade He laughs at you, you grab and holster your gun, and leave with your new CCW license.

[Wobble]

The benefit of concealed is that in a nasty situation your concealed weapon is not known to the bad guys until you decide to enter the game. If it is visible, someone yells out to "you with the gun do something" and you have lost your advantage and immediately drawn into a fight.

Spot on. Open carry would just make you the first target IMO.

[David Brown]

http://concealednation.org/2015/05/vide ... ous-lives/

More evidence.

An untrained civilian with a weapon is too big a risk. Imagine if there was some bloke in the Lindt Café engagement with a gun and he decided to cut loose and the turkey with the sawn off responded.

Headspace……you are correct in the concept of some nutter with a rambo passion, but CC is not about that. It is all about responsible and educated carry.

Sure in the USA the 2nd amendment says you can…….but the vast majority carry responsibly and the training game over there is a booming industry.

I am reliably informed here in QLD, most regular club members are better up to speed that the vast majority of QPS…..and they open carry everywhere now. No exceptions.

[Bourt]

It is all about responsible and educated carry.

[David Brown]

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Ohh and lets ban knives shall we, and camping stores?

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act ... 7350591262

She had aright to live…..and a right to defend herself. Poor lady…..

[trekin]

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Ohh and lets ban knives shall we, and camping stores?

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act ... 7350591262

She had aright to live…..and a right to defend herself. Poor lady…..

As did the 35 other women viciously attacked and murdered since the beginning of this year (2015)!

[1290]

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Ohh and lets ban knives shall we, and camping stores?

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act ... 7350591262

She had aright to live…..and a right to defend herself. Poor lady…..

As did the 35 other women viciously attacked and murdered since the beginning of this year (2015)!

During the 2013 year - 137 males versus 79 females were the victims of homicide..... so statistically its likely that during the time that 35 females were killed; around about 60 males were also killed..... are you saying that the males are less significant because they're not women??? or the deaths of females are more significant because at the moment the media is only concerned with women victims??

What we are seeing in the media makes me sick, just like the way a death involving a firearm is so much more 'newsworthy' than a death as a result of a motor vehicle incident.....

The death of any person at the hands of another is abhorrent, regardless of sex, but blokes are also the victims of homicide, and of domestic violence, wouldnt think so if you received all your info from the media.

[wrenchman]

I might start a little fight but the lady shooters take guns more serias then men and they drive a lot of training for new shooters and they take the advanced courses later men are macho and lazy some of the best copition shooter right now are young ladys and are makeing men look bad doing it.

[Title_II]

I might start a little fight but the lady shooters take guns more serias then men and they drive a lot of training for new shooters and they take the advanced courses later men are macho and lazy some of the best copition shooter right now are young ladys and are makeing men look bad doing it.

It's true in America as well. Mostly. Most women in America are not taking endless training or putting in hours a week in drills like some of the guys. But at the beginner level and sometimes intermediate they seem to absorb the training a lot better because they take it a little more seriously and don't muck it up with preconceived notions or attitude. And don't get me wrong, the serious ones will outshoot most men. It's just that more men end up going beyond what is needed and take it to the limits.

[David Brown]

You guys are correct. Reminds me of this T Shirt

[David Brown]

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Ohh and lets ban knives shall we, and camping stores?

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act ... 7350591262

She had aright to live…..and a right to defend herself. Poor lady…..

As did the 35 other women viciously attacked and murdered since the beginning of this year (2015)!

During the 2013 year - 137 males versus 79 females were the victims of homicide..... so statistically its likely that during the time that 35 females were killed; around about 60 males were also killed..... are you saying that the males are less significant because they're not women??? or the deaths of females are more significant because at the moment the media is only concerned with women victims??

What we are seeing in the media makes me sick, just like the way a death involving a firearm is so much more 'newsworthy' than a death as a result of a motor vehicle incident.....

The death of any person at the hands of another is abhorrent, regardless of sex, but blokes are also the victims of homicide, and of domestic violence, wouldnt think so if you received all your info from the media.

1290, That is a good point. being realistic about it there is no difference between the male/female murder value. In my mind both are equal as is their right to defend themselves against a person of ill intent.

The problem comes generally from the bigger physically and stronger is generally the male, so in a M/F battle you know who has the best odds. A woman with some training and a 1911 will have equal odds of self defines. It is a playing field leveller.

Now if you come to my house….I am the endangered species, my son is 6-7 inches taller and a 3rd Dan Black belt in TKD, my wife and daughter one level off black belt, and they are strong…..with or without any M/F advantage, I am screwed if I try anything silly!

[headspace]

You don't need CC just take your family everywhere.

[1290]

DB, at least you'll be protected....

But yes, through the evolutionary process, women are the smaller / weaker sex, it is a reality of our evolution, though some women are bigger and stronger then some men, the average Australian adult male is 13cm taller and 14kg heavier than the average adult Aussie woman....... however, the numbers are there; 137 dead males vs 79 dead females, though the media has of recent apparently been decpicting running tallly of dead women for the year, with the running commentary describing the number of victims of domestic violence..... so every female that dies from an assault is the victim of domestic violence, presumably none of the males are victims of DV???

again, the horse is dead, but today, should today have transpired like the average day.... there were at least 380 Australians who dies... from all causes, now which ones of those are most 'newsworthy' to report...??

I despise the media and the methods....

[David Brown]

1290…….are you looking for a violent agreement here?

I despise the media and the methods....

Agreed!

[David Brown]

I wonder how Ms Illingworth feels about her personal security?

http://www.news.com.au/national/norther ... 7353781478