Ammo Storage VIC

[Varmtr]

Thanks for the info 1290.
I believe its more that they have no idea.
Interesting about powder storage. The way I read it that it can be stored in a steel container as long as its lined with timber to prevent sparks.
To be honest I find that DG part a bit silly considering you have more chance of a spark from static electricity from your clothes while handling it.

[KWhorenet]

Thanks for the info 1290.
I believe its more that they have no idea.
Interesting about powder storage. The way I read it that it can be stored in a steel container as long as its lined with timber to prevent sparks.
To be honest I find that DG part a bit silly considering you have more chance of a spark from static electricity from your clothes while handling it.

You 'SPARKED' my interest so I had to look into the static and spark ignition of black and smokeless powders

Very interesting

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_exp ... parks.html
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_exp ... ition.html

[Oldbloke]

Kwhorenet, interesting video. A little suprising to see the results. For those interested here is some additional info.
I you wear clotning mate of natural products such as cotton they do not generate static
In most instances ignitions are caused by heat
Remember FISH. For potential ignition causes, Friction, Impact, Spark, Heat. And you can if you wish add I for incompatible Chemicals.
If you do use a metal container to store powder in, its a good idea to ensure it is earthed, but do not use the household earth or plumbing. (Due to potential 240v feed back) . A copper pipe staked into the earth is a good method.
Every compound/powder is sensitive to deferent ignition source's, some impact, like primer compound and static for photo flash. Also the state it is in at the time can easily change sensitivity, so best to eliminate all sourse anyway. Eg loose dust on bench or compressed or dust cloud.
Any container that powder is stored in must be capable of venting in the event of an ignition. That is why the containers you buy powder in is si light weight, this is to ensure it splits or bursts if it ignites.
Avoide flamable such as synthetic clothing when reloading, wool and cotton are good choices

[Hatter]

In most instances ignitions are caused by heat

Mythbusters did a thing on it and from memory it was about 400f to ignite the powder they were testing with.

Nothing you have to worry about at home.

[Oldbloke]

In most instances ignitions are caused by heat

Mythbusters did a thing on it and from memory it was about 400f to ignite the powder they were testing with.

Nothing you have to worry about at home.

The ignitions are caused by heat that is generated in a number of ways, and static is just one, but there needs to be a lot of energy to ignite some explosives. Impact & friction also cause heat as will chemical reactions, resulting in an ignition. For reasons I do not understand some explosive materials can be more sensitive to one factor than the others.

It's all about chemistry.

[KWhorenet]

The ignitions are caused by heat that is generated in a number of ways, and static is just one, but there needs to be a lot of energy to ignite some explosives. Impact & friction also cause heat as will chemical reactions, resulting in an ignition. For reasons I do not understand some explosive materials can be more sensitive to one factor than the others.

It's all about chemistry.

for example my father burning plastic explosive like a jiffy fire lighter to heat his canteen cup of coffee in Vietnam.

[Wes]

It's like C4 which as I understand it 'rapidly decomposes' releases gas at such a forceful rate it's destructive.

It doesn't ignite in the same sense as normal flammable fuels/substances.

[Oldbloke]

One of the problems with steel containers is if well sealed the gasses from the ignition of powder will not vent. A fast burn will then become an explosion. Venting is VERY important, frpm a safety point of view.

[Hercl]

So where does an average gun safe door fall on the scale of "well sealed" ?

[KWhorenet]

So where does an average gun safe door fall on the scale of "well sealed" ?

* Note: Disclaimer: Figures used are a pure bum pluck simply to paint the picture.

Picture a lb or 10 igniting in an enclosed box (safe) and expanding the air volume by 50 times within seconds...

Will this escape through miniscule gaps around your safe door before blowing it out like fire forming a case, or worse like a hand grenade ?

[Oldbloke]

So where does an average gun safe door fall on the scale of "well sealed" ?

* Note: Disclaimer: Figures used are a pure bum pluck simply to paint the picture.

Picture a lb or 10 igniting in an enclosed box (safe) and expanding the air volume by 50 times within seconds...

Will this escape through miniscule gaps around your safe door before blowing it out like fire forming a case, or worse like a hand grenade ?

Isn't that an interesting question.

The containers you buy powder in are designed to split at relatively low pressures. Take a loaded round for example. it will be say 70%+ full & if it ignites on its own the case will split or the projectile will "pop" out at low pressure with little velocity. So you get a sort of fireworks result. (they are designed this way intentually )
But chamber it and the pressure only has 1 way to go and the projectile is a tight fit. Due to the small space it burns onto its self, this speeds up the rate of burning. Pressure builds rapidly & you get a high velocity projectile.
So a tight lidded shoe box sized tool box with say a 2kg tin of powder would be a concern. But a gun safe with the same 2kg would be lower risk. Add a few vents and even better.
1. So half full of powder, good seal & strong material together add up to high risk.
2. Low level of powder, lightly built with some venting adds up to much lower risk.
But I cannot quantitate it.

[KWhorenet]

I think the dilemma is more about personal preference with securing valuables and attractive items from crooks and d**kheads or children.

A safe seems great but the result could be devastating to a fireman saving your arse in a house fire.

KIS - Out of sight out of mind.

[Fujix]

So a tight lidded shoe box sized tool box with say a 2kg tin of powder would be a concern. But a gun safe with the same 2kg would be lower risk. Add a few vents and even better.

Just a thought here, not sure if it's a worry over nothing, I wonder how the fuzz would feel about a few vent's being drilled in the side of a safety as a safety measure.

Anyone had any indication it would cause a problem?

[Oldbloke]

I would never store powder with firearms in a safe.

[Elek]

I would never store powder with firearms in a safe.

You mean not in the same compartment as the firearms, or not in the same safe at all - even if in the separate ammo compartment?

[adam]

Can someone please correct me if I'm wrong on both of these points:

1) It appears as though in Vic it is illegal for me to store ammunition in a locked ammo box in with my guns in the gun safe... however it's perfectly legal for me to store ammunition in the same locked ammo box and sit it next to my gun safe?!?

2) It also appears as though the act does not allow storage of ammunition within a fixed locked built in container within a gun safe if guns are also stored in that same safe - however the police have been given the ability to choose for themselves with internal policies, and the policy of the Victorian Police (at this point in time) is that they do allow storage of ammunition in safe's that have a separate factory fitted locked compartment (that locks with a different key to the main safe).

If so - since this is an internal police policy - what's stopping the commissioner from having a change of heart without us knowing, and it costing us our firearms on the next inspection? (Yes - I know this is a little on the paranoia side... but just because one is paranoid doesn't mean they're wrong)

[happyhunter]

If you have a purpose built gun safe like the lockaway it is legal to store guns and ammo in the same safe so long as the ammo is in the separate lockable compartment. Otherwise, you need to store the ammo in a separate container.

[adam]

Sch. 4 item 1(3) amended by No. 22/1998 s. 43(Sch. item 17(a)).

(3) Any cartridge ammunition for the firearm must be stored in a locked container separate from the receptacle in which the firearm must be stored.

According to the DFO on this video, http://www.sportingshootermag.com.au/ne ... -explained the act does not allow it, but the police have their own internal policy to allow storage that overrides this.

So - presently what you say is correct - but this still conflicts with the act - and as such it's only allowable because of an internal police policy - which can change on the commissioners whim.

[darwindingo]

Adam, gotta love the good old power of the "commissioners whim". For me Its more than a little concerning that one individual can wield such power. .

I guess hes the man....

I wonder what it is that qualifies the respective commissioner to make such decisions



Jeff

[adam]

Adam, gotta love the good old power of the "commissioners whim". For me Its more than a little concerning that one individual can wield such power. .

I guess hes the man....

I wonder what it is that qualifies the respective commissioner to make such decisions

In this case it seems as though they've made a sensible decision in our favour.

But being a firearm owner has unfortunately made me rather cynical about some] of the people involved in authority, and although sad to say - nothing would surprise me anymore. Why not simply change the act instead and have it clear for all to understand?

I'm just a little uncomfortable putting my trust in the hands of one person who can change the policy at any time without needing to notify us, thus making our storage arrangement go from legal to illegal overnight.

Thankfully the answer is easy (even though it's stupid and less secure): Take my ammunition out of the secured safe, and put it in a toolbox with a lock on it next to the safe - which anyone could carry out, but hey - it's legal, and doesn't leave me open to prosecution should some future commissioner decide to play dirty...

[darwindingo]

I would prefer the change the act approach, the ability of one person to simply change the policy as they see fit is crazy stuff.

Should at least be a requirement to provide official notification of any such changes.