Non Firearm Related - Home Self Defence

[adam]

So in the land down under, apparently we have a right to defend ourselves, but it seems we don't have the ability to exercise that right, or it's very unclear to what point, or what we're permitted to use or prepare for...

We're not allowed to use firearms, capsicum spray to defend our spouses & children from home invaders, nor are we allowed protective clothing such as vests to stop knife (or even bullets).

I've started this thread in the hope to accomplish two things:

1) To clear up what is and is not permitted as far as preparing for self defence, what's permitted for different types of threats - and the relevant laws, and

2) Good ideas of what can legally be done around the house.


ie: For myself - it's my understanding that your only allowed to use 'appropriate' force. Probably hard enough to determine when given hours to judge in a court room, but even more difficult when you wake up half asleep in the middle of the knight to a serious threat. So with that in mind:

Am I allowed to keep a large kitchen knife in my bed draw at night incase of an armed intruder? If not - am I allowed to keep a large kitchen knife next to my bed because I store it there because it's mine and I don't want the misses using it and if it's used for an intruder it's only coincidence?

What other ideas of defence can be left around the house that are normal every day items that could be handy and just a 'coincidence' it happened to be there at the right time if heaven forbid it's needed?

[pajamatime]

This does a great job explaining it if people prefer video. Like me when I'm tired lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YuI05LmlqE

[Gwion]

The term is not "appropriate force" it is "reasonable & proportionate force". There is what is known as an "escalating scale of force".

If you are under threat of deadly force, you can use deadly force in response. If someone hits you with a toothpick, you cannot reply with an ax handle. If someone has a knife, you can use the ax handle but if you disarm them and continue to beat them with the ax handle, you will likely be in trouble.

If one unarmed guy casually walks into your well lit house and says, 'hey, i'm going to take your TV', all you can really do is tell him to bugger off and get out of your house. If he acquiesces to your demand in a reasonable time frame, then he is free to go. If he refuses to leave, then you can use any and all "reasonable force" to evict him from your premises. Reasonable force can only be described and prescribed by the circumstances and what a reasonable person would do in that situation. Hence,if you injure the intruder, you will likely have to go and sit in front of a "reasonable" person (magistrate) and prove that your action where indeed reasonable; if the police find your actions questionable, that is. The police are the first line in the "reasonable person" assessment.

If, on the other hand, he walks into your unlit house and you cannot see if he is armed or not, you can probably show that you reasonably feared for your safety and can probably use what would otherwise be seen as disproportionate force, ie: you go on the attack and hard. You will still have to prove that this was reasonable to police and/or courts.Prisons are full of people who have been found to have acted beyond what is commonly thought of as "reasonably".

The thing with keeping any sort of weapons around is that they are also available for any attacker to use. A knife beside your bed is in the hands of your attacker if they get to your room before you wake up. The ax in the wood shed is waiting for them to pick up. The rack of kitchen knives is ready to hand for any home invader or startled burglar. The hammer in your shed, or the shovel leaning against the back wall of your house........

This sort of question/comment comes up quite a bit. You have every right to defend yourself with what ever is to hand, it is just that you cannot have that item there as a weapon, waiting to be used as such. Also, confronting intruders is a last resort. You should treat the situation like a fire and know your escape route. You can replace a TV, your wife's jewelry or what ever, but you cannot replace your life or remove the trauma of violent confrontation from your family's minds once the worst has occurred.

So, to prepare for such an event:
- Know where all possible weapons are and restrict access to them
- Know your escape routes and have more than one; in fact have as many as possible
- Know your rights and responsibilities under law
- IF you are "preparing" because you think it's likely to occur, then think about why you consider it likely to occur and take steps to change that factor in your life. Bad habits? Bad company? Bad area? Bad debts? All in your control to change. Why live your life in fear and anticipation of violence?
- If you decide that you are going to "stay and fight" be prepared to get hurt; even if you have weapons and experience; and also be prepared for lasting affects on yourself and others in the house.


Having said all that, i have potential weapons lying around everywhere. Not because i am waiting to use them but because i use them all the time for day to day tasks. I am also quite well trained and experienced in fighting, so any surprise visitor would be in for a rude shock if they were to show violent intent.

Good luck, mate, but my best advice is just don't worry too much about it all!!!

[trekin]

Pity your not up here in QLD, what with our old, antiquated laws, we're still allowed to use certain devices to protect our houses. It is also apparently exceptable to post Trespassers Will Be Shot warning signs on your property, as long as you don't carry out the threat.

[pajamatime]

Cause I'm a nice guy I'm going to bump this thread so it gets more posts.

and here is a nice argument to pass the time
You may not like guns
That is your right
You may not believe in God
That is your choice
But if someone breaks into your home, you are going to:

1.Call someone with a gun
2.Pray they get there in time

When seconds count the police are only minutes away

Don't be a victim!...or a dead one. empower your self today! Fight for your right to defend yourself without fear of becoming the criminal

[FuzzyM]

The other day a young couple got bashed outside the cinema I usually go to. Even after they handed over their valuables straight away. That was at a massive shopping centre in a reasonable area. Gotta wonder how safe we are sometimes.

[Bosbefok]

Get big dogs and have confident control over them. Make sure they do not bite visitors or family members. Make sure they are well trained!

[Stubbles McBeard]

Mike Rann did at least one reasonable thing when he was in power down here in South Aus...

No 28 of 2003—Criminal Law Consolidation (Self Defence) Amendment Act 2003 [4] In July 2003, the Rann Government (SA) introduced laws allowing householders to use "whatever force they deem necessary" when confronted with a home invader. Householders who kill or injure a home invader escape prosecution provided they can prove they had a genuine belief that it was necessary to do so to protect themselves or their family.

It's easy enough to say "If you're in a bad area, move," but I live in a town that is suffering, along with many other regional centres, through a bit of a meth crisis at the moment. I can't afford to just sell up and move away. Break ins and other drug related crimes are on the rise, my best mate got broken into and had cash stolen while him, his missus and kids were sleeping. It's reassuring to know that we have the right to use "any force necessary."
No officer, I promise I just so happened to be cleaning the shotgun at the exact moment he came through the window...

[adam]

The thing with keeping any sort of weapons around is that they are also available for any attacker to use. A knife beside your bed is in the hands of your attacker if they get to your room before you wake up.
<snip>
You have every right to defend yourself with what ever is to hand, it is just that you cannot have that item there as a weapon, waiting to be used as such.

Only if they know where it's hidden. However as you've mentioned - I have no rights to place one there in the case I'm attacked by an ice addict with another knife. I've just got to be lucky enough to be in the right place with the right item in the eyes of the law...

Also, confronting intruders is a last resort. You should treat the situation like a fire and know your escape route. You can replace a TV, your wife's jewelry or what ever, but you cannot replace your life or remove the trauma of violent confrontation from your family's minds once the worst has occurred.

That's a good point, however with houses designed so that the master bedroom is at the opposite end of the house to the kids room, an intruder is almost guaranteed to be between me, and my young children. Escape (after getting my children) will almost inevitably means going past the intruder.

As for worrying about it - I'm being "Alert but not alarmed".

I'm not staying awake at night thinking about it, but I realise with the way that both society is going, as well as our stupid laws that say we're allowed to defend ourselves, but effectively tie our hands behind our backs - that I need to start consideing what would happen. ICE addition is on the rise. Home invasions are too. There's a good chance I won't be invaded, but there's every possibility that I will be. I see this as no different to wearing a seatbelt...

The other day a young couple got bashed outside the cinema I usually go to. Even after they handed over their valuables straight away. That was at a massive shopping centre in a reasonable area. Gotta wonder how safe we are sometimes.

And this is what I mean by the way society is going. Violence is increasing not only in quantity but also intensity of the act. If someone breaks into my house whilst we are there, I figure there's an constantly increasing odds as time goes on that they will create injury if they come across any person.

Mike Rann did at least one reasonable thing when he was in power down here in South Aus...

Yeah - and other states seem to think SA is the backwards state. Well - all this talk about 'moving forward' irritates me to bits. Forward to where or what?!? I'd love to move to SA, (for many more reasons than this) - but it's not practical for me at this point in my life.

This does a great job explaining it if people prefer video. Like me when I'm tired lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YuI05LmlqE

Thanks for that link. He's got an interesting point "Australian law requires you to be defenseless." Good to see that this is on the agenda. Hopefully this party gets some more push - but unfortuantely I think there's way too much opposite push and as things get worse people with illogical thinking seem to think that restricting the law more will affect the criminals that are already currently breaking the law.

Thanks for the info guys. If you have any practical suggestions for items around the house that would make good opportunities - I'd be interested to hear.

[sbd3927]

It also depends where your mind goes if you think you need an object for self defence. I'd rather grab a wooden chair than a knife anytime. and after I'd broken it across their head I'd have several sticks to choose from. Yes Judge, I do have chairs all around my house... is not something you are going to need to say.

[Gwion]

Just one other thing to consider. If you are "going for a hidden weapon" and an intruder is close and closing; you are wasting valuable moments and leaving yourself exposed.If you are really worried about this stuff, get some good training in close quarter combat where you can play with different people, get a feel for different approaches, different sizes and see how you are going to get hurt anytime you decide to go on the attack. As i said earlier, this is a reality you have to accept; no matter what weapon you have to hand, if you choose to fight there is the chance they have the same or more effective weapons or abilities. You have to go into it expecting to be injured. It's a bonus if you aren't, not the other way around. It all about choosing/influencing how, where and how badly you are hurt while neutralizing the situation.

Having read the law in Vic & Tas (as that's the places i have/do live and i need to know my rights and responsibilities, as it is more difficult for me to prove 'fear of safety or life' for my own person due to the training i have), you can do what ever you feel is reasonable to defend your self; as long as the majority of people feel that it is reasonably what they would do as well, then you have nothing to worry about when claiming self defense in the case of serious injury to the other party. When you bring in fear for the saftey or life of your kids, there not many people who would rule unreasonable action unless you disarmed and/or incapacitated the intruder and proceeded to beat them to bloody pulp.

[Lorgar]

Get big dogs and have confident control over them. Make sure they do not bite visitors or family members. Make sure they are well trained!

Mine sleep inside, I can rest easy knowing they're there. Legal too as far as the topic of defence goes, see last two points below.

Defences
If your dog does attack, you may be able to defend a prosecution or a dangerous dog declaration if you can show that:

• the dog was being teased, abused or assaulted
• another person or animal was trespassing on the premises where the dog was kept
• another person known to the dog was being attacked in front of the dog.

Anyone who puts a foot through my window in the dead of night is going to be leaving with one less shoe and more of a limp

[Gwion]

Even small dogs are a deterrent to crims and make good alarm guards if allowed to be real dogs (loyal a subordinate their pack leaders) and not namby pambied like mummy's little cutsie munchkin boo boo...

A dog, or a pair of dogs, are very good in the house hold security plan. They don't have to be big, intimidating, "viscous" type breeds of dog.

[Title_II]

Shoot a giant net on them.

[FuzzyM]

I like the American's style! ^

Do I have to store the net in a locked safe?
Also, do I need a license for this net and or launcher?

[Title_II]

Dogs are the best. A couple other things. Harden the front door. Usually that's the way they come in. Either steel frame and door or add a kit to your door:

http://securitygem.com/armor-concepts-d ... -security/

I want time to cock the crossbow because I'm nailing the first SOB to the wall so he can watch me machete his mates while the dog chews on him. By the time the coppers and the press get there they will be so horrified they will take away my machete and ask me to keep my guns outside the safe and loaded from now on.

It would be good to have a few cameras (with motion detection) to see what is going on outside as well. Nowadays this can be done for <$200.

[on_one_wheel]

The best defence is a deterrent. Stuff actually needing to defend yourself or your family inside your own home.

I dont feel any threat where I llive but if I did feel a genuine need to consider my home security / defence I'd go for, lights, action, camera.

. motion sensor lights front, back and sides
. Dogs to alert me ( action )
. Cameras covering all 4 corners, driveway front / back yards that are easily visible during the day from the street with its hard-drive hidden in the cealing cavity .

Unless your mixing with the wrong people like druggies or bikers no one is going to try to invade your home if it looks too risky, they will simply move on and find another house. Criminals like high front fences that you can't see through from the street or poorly lit bushy front yards for coverage. They like to use tools avaliable on site to gain entry like garden tools, picks, shovels, crow bars, star droppers , pine posts , loose bricks ect. so keeping stuff like that locked away is a good start.

Don't forget to lock your doors,and latch your windows.

[on_one_wheel]

Dogs are the best. A couple other things. Harden the front door. Usually that's the way they come in. Either steel frame and door or add a kit to your door:

http://securitygem.com/armor-concepts-d ... -security/

I want time to cock the crossbow because I'm nailing the first SOB to the wall so he can watch me machete his mates while the dog chews on him. By the time the coppers and the press get there they will be so horrified they will take away my machete and ask me to keep my guns outside the safe and loaded from now on.

It would be good to have a few cameras (with motion detection) to see what is going on outside as well. Nowadays this can be done for <$200.

I Ike your thinking.

[Triang]

Shoot a giant net on them.

That would be so awesome for a burglar to get into your house, turn around and see this coming at them

[Stubbles McBeard]

Shoot a giant net on them.

That would be so awesome for a burglar to get into your house, turn around and see this coming at them

I need this in my life.

[pomemax]

A few years ago we had a serial prowler when I was working shift I had three dog at the time a German Shepard and a male and female English Springer Spaniels the wife used to say the stupid dogs never bark .
The police at the time were a good help one cop told me if you catch him roll him in a carpet take him to the Gross valley well never find him the other cop BIGGEST guy I have ever seen say" I LOVE PROWLERS WHEN I CATCHES THEM"
away this went on for a few weeks till I CAUGHT the b***ard turns out was the old bloke across the road from us he knew the dogs and he was not interested in our house at all he was going to see the old lady in the house behind over my back fence only way i found him was the path he wore in the grass mind you he was in his 70s and telling his wife he was going for a walk for exercise.
( Guess who did't dob him in we did not have the heart we KNEW HIS MRS ) she was a bitch lol MY Mrs used to call the old bloke romeo after that .

[Baronvonrort]

I want time to cock the crossbow because I'm nailing the first SOB to the wall so he can watch me machete his mates while the dog chews on him. By the time the coppers and the press get there they will be so horrified they will take away my machete and ask me to keep my guns outside the safe and loaded from now on.

It would be good to have a few cameras (with motion detection) to see what is going on outside as well. Nowadays this can be done for <$200.

The cameras would be a great idea, you could post the videos on youtube.

[Gwion]

Post signs on your boundary saying "see yourself on http://www.imgoingtoprison.com.au" upload live to the cloud from your cameras and live stream at your website...

Other available domain names are:
www.imathievingbastard.com.au
www.irolledthewronghouse.com.au
and my favourite...
www.mumithinkimfukced.com.au

[joker]

Shoot a giant net on them.

That would be so awesome for a burglar to get into your house, turn around and see this coming at them

[pajamatime]

I like the American's style! ^

Do I have to store the net in a locked safe?
Also, do I need a license for this net and or launcher?

watch out for rope burn...wouldn't want to hurt the criminals beautiful skin<3
regardless of whether or not we have lost a limb or 2 lol

[Bourt]

Shoot a giant net on them.

That would be so awesome for a burglar to get into your house, turn around and see this coming at them

I need this in my life.

I wonder what the legalities are on such a thing here.

What if it was an 'automatic casting net' for catching shrimp?

[Baronvonrort]

I wonder what the legalities are on such a thing here.

What if it was an 'automatic casting net' for catching shrimp?

A lot of them are CO2 powered single shot,sounds like Cat A to me.

http://wildlifecapture.com/small-animal-net-gun

[Title_II]

Back in the real world, have you ever seen Fourth of July Independence Day fireworks on your television?

If you rotate it 90° and turn it horizontal it would look and sound a lot like that. I hope my home insurance covers it because I am going to Home Depot for a heck of a lot of spackle and drywall.

[adam]

Back in the real world, have you ever seen Fourth of July Independence Day fireworks on your television?

If you rotate it 90° and turn it horizontal it would look and sound a lot like that. I hope my home insurance covers it because I am going to Home Depot for a heck of a lot of spackle and drywall.

Yeah... um... nope. We're not allowed fireworks or firecrackers here in Australia too. We might hurt ourselves. Kinda amazing they still allow us to have carving knives and a kitchen at home.

[Title_II]

I wasn't talking about fireworks, I was comparing the sight and sound of what would happen to fireworks