Dirty 9mm reloads, what am I doing wrong?

[Hollywood]

Have just started reloading my own 9mm Luger rounds so go easy on me!

I have noticed that the cases (and my hand) are very dirty after firing compared to factory ammo. I'm using 3.8 grains (The starting load) of ADI AP70N powder with Speer 125gn LRN projectiles. After 100 rounds today my trigger finger was quite black, seemingly from the smoke being emitted around the trigger area when firing. The rounds cycle OK although the accuracy is not that great, they seem to go right and high. If I run some factory JHP ammo through it after the LRN the accuracy is fine.

Any suggestions/advice on how to rectify the 'dirty' loads or is that normal? The rounds sound 'duller' than the factory ammo too, the factory ammo has more of a sharp crack when fired.

[brett1868]

What brass you using? how many loads been through it and what pistol?

[Hollywood]

S&W M&P, new in January, only 1300 rounds through it. The brass is a mixture but that doesn't seem to affect the outcome as far as I can tell, it all looks like that after firing.

[brett1868]

Definitely unusual discolouration, I use 4.4Gr of AP70 with a 122Gr TopScore LRN in my Glock 17A. AP70 is quite smokey so don't worry about that but the Glock has only minor discoloration around the neck and certainly not to the same extent as your experiencing. I was thinking of a few possibilities,

1. Too light a charge, not allowing the case to fully expand and seal the chamber properly.
2. Brass too hard
3. Sloppy chamber
4. Recoil spring too light
5. Out of spec resizing die

Up the load a little closer to the max on the ADI site as that's probably easiest. Use a caliber to measure case diameter pre / post resizing and see how much of a difference there is.

[Hollywood]

Righto, I'll try upping the charge and see if that makes a difference. All the reloading gear (Lee single stage press) is new so it 'should' be OK.

I just went and measured some of my reloads and compared them to some factory PPU ammo. Interestingly my reloads are around .007-.008' thou smaller in diameter than the factory stuff. A quick Google search tells me that 9mm Luger neck size should be .380 and mine are around .374 - .375.

FACTORY AMMO


RELOAD


Here are some before and after resizing pics.
BEFORE


AFTER

[No1Mk3]

G'day Hollywood,
I feel your load is a bit light and not burning fully or sealing properly, as brett1868 said. I used to load 4.2g of AP70, it was OK but I changed to W231 @ 4.7g with 124g FMJ @ 1090fps avg. Was a lot cleaner, now I load 3.8g of AP50 with 125g HRBC semi wadcutters and they run quite cleanly, Cheers.

[Hollywood]

OK, so upping the powder charge seems to be the place to start. Unfortunately I'm off to work for two weeks so won't be able to experiment until I get back but will keep you posted on the results.

Appreciate the suggestions.

[Hollywood]

So I headed back to the range today. I replaced the 124gn projectiles with some 135gn ones but used the same 3.8gn powder charge as I was using for the 124gn. (Recommended starting load for the 135gn was 3.2 with a max of 4.2)

What a difference! The cases were clean after firing, although I still ended up with some powder residue on my trigger finger which I don't seem to get using factory ammo. The accuracy was a lot, lot better also.

This is from my last shoot with the Speer 124gn LRN projectiles at 25m.


These are the rounds I'm using. They are a copper washed projectile which did seem to prevent some of the heavy lead build up I've been getting.




And this is what I managed today at 25m! That's 10 rounds.

[brett1868]

Awesome group, you gotta be happy with that and a great advert for the S&W M&P. What do you think of the Delta Point sight? I picked up a Delta Point Pro this afternoon and bolted it onto the Walther. Haven't shot it yet, that's tomorrows entertainment along with putting the first rounds through a spanking new M9A3 I collected today.

[Hollywood]

I couldn't afford the Delta Point Pro so got the last Delta Point in Aus I think. I'm really happy with it although it does feel like cheating a bit! Definitely better on an outdoor range than inside as I tend to get some 'starring' from the red dot in low light conditions whereas outside it's a clear, crisp dot.

This was at 7m today.


I couldn't repeat that 25m grouping, at least to not to that level of accuracy, must have been a lucky magazine! The pic below is more representative of my 25m shooting today. Either way I'm very happy with those reload settings other than the issue with still getting dirty fingers that I just don't get from factory ammo.

[sandgroperbill]

Brett, I'm in the process of looking for a pistol club to join and I'm shortlisting candidates for a new pistol. The M9a3 looks like it would be the goods, so would love to get some feedback once you get the chance. Also looking at steyr l9a1, fnh five seven, sig p226 or p228 and undecided between 9mm, .357sig or .45. Some advice would be appreciated

[bluerob]

I'm using 3.3gns of AP50, 138gn round nose and have no issues with "its a bit dirty". I'm using a Sig X6 or H&K USP.

Mate of mine is using AP70 and finds that its a bit more of a "crack" when fired. Cases are a bit dirty also, compared to mine. Burning rate might have an affect?

I wish that ADI would get their act together and start making AP50 in 2kg bottles. I know I'd buy 10 of them.

[brett1868]

Slight hijack...sorry.
Here's the Walther PPQ Q5 with the DeltaPoint Pro mounted (Just saw that the cover is on), I like that the slide is pre-milled and there's 3 bases in the box to accommodate a variety of sights. Below it is the M9A3 that I was planning to shoot tonight but have to wait till tomorrow due to interference by executive management.

IMG_2281.JPG (271.46 KiB) Viewed 10366 times

[Wylie27]

Minister for finance and home affairs got in the way.

Would be interested in how m9a3 shoots. I used to have a 92fs and hated the double action but loved the single.

Oh and to the OP, some good information in your thread, I am about to start reloading 9mm myself

[brett1868]

Brett, I'm in the process of looking for a pistol club to join and I'm shortlisting candidates for a new pistol. The M9a3 looks like it would be the goods, so would love to get some feedback once you get the chance. Also looking at steyr l9a1, fnh five seven, sig p226 or p228 and undecided between 9mm, .357sig or .45. Some advice would be appreciated

Rather then jack Hollywood's thread, you can read this post
http://enoughgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6135

[Hollywood]

Headed back to the range today with more 135gn reloads but thought I'd test out a recommended starting load of 3.2gn. No good at all, numerous stove pipes and feed issues and very, very dirty. I'll try the 3.8gn again tomorrow as I seem to have had the best results with that so far.

[brett1868]

No1Mk3 mentions cleaner results using AP50 so maybe get a bottle to test when the AP70 runs out. I'll get a bottle of AP50 and see how it goes for myself and report back in a week.

[Elek]

The stove piping can be a couple of things.

Assuming the ammo is recent right? Not old loads?

If you're allowing enough free recoil by not bracing enough it can cause it also.

Is ejection 100% with hotter loads so you know the ejection mechanism is working properly?


Any completely un burnt powder left after firing?

[Hollywood]

Back to the range with fresh 3.8gn loads today. No feed issues at all (I've never had any feed issues with the M&P other than the 3.2gn loads yesterday). Accuracy was fine, very good actually, but still a very dirty trigger finger after 100 rounds. There's no powder left after firing.

[Hollywood]

While I'm here, what's the best way you've found to get the lead out of the barrel. This is my barrel after todays effort. These copper coated projectiles aren't too bad but the straight lead ones I've used in the past were terrible, after 200rounds I couldn't even see the rifling in the barrel!

[brett1868]

A good swabbing with solvent, let it sit for 10-15 mins to soak in then hit it with the brush and repeat 2-3 times if required. Alternatively, after shooting lead try and finish off with a mag of JHP or FMJ ammo to clean the lead out. On the big rifles I have some brass VLD rounds that I use to clean out copper fouling. Same principle applies to handguns, use a harder metal to remove the softer one. Copper is easy enough to clean with a good copper solvent.

[Hollywood]

Thanks brett1868, appreciate the advice on this thread. I'm struggling to get the fouling out of the concave sections of the rifling without physically scraping it out from the muzzle end. What solvent are you using?

[brett1868]

Thanks brett1868, appreciate the advice on this thread. I'm struggling to get the fouling out of the concave sections of the rifling without physically scraping it out from the muzzle end. What solvent are you using?

I start with Birchwood Casey Bore Scrubber which comes in a big spray can, liberal spray in the chamber / bore and let it sit for 10-15min before giving it a good scrubbing with a bronze brush, I do this a couple times if required. Any of the better bore solvents will work just as well, Hoppe's No.9 is good and can be purchased in 500ml bottles. If my OCD kicks in I'll put the barrel into a plastic bottle filled with No.9 and then put that in the big ultrasonic cleaner. Set the temp to 35c and give it a 20min bath...give it a wipe down and oiling brings it up like new. I've got a dirty barrel at home so if I get time tonight I'll do some before and after pictures using a bore cam so you can see the results up close.

[Hollywood]

I'm using Hoppe's No.9 but still struggling to remove the stuff in the grooves.

[Hollywood]

Back to the range today with the same 135gn projectiles but upped the charge to the maximum recommended charge of 4.2gn.

Accuracy was fine, cases were clean and my finger was substantially cleaner than the previous attempts at lower charges. Might stick with that for the moment.

Left target is 10 rounds at about 10m and the right one is 20 rounds at 25m.

[brett1868]

Spent the best part of the past 2 hours scrubbing 3 pistol barrels and took some before and after pictures. Both the barrels below were using the same load of TopScore 122gr coated LRN pushed by 4.4Gr of AP70. Both barrels showed similar amounts of lead fouling and took different amounts of scrubbing to get clean. A shot of bore scrubber followed by a bronze brushing then patched dry to get the rough off. Several mopping's of Hoppe's No.9 with a good scrubbing in between. A bore scope is both good and bad, it's good at showing how bad you clean a barrel.

Beretta M9A3 Before

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Beretta M9A3 After

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Walther PPQ Q5 Before

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Walther PPQ Q5 After

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[Hollywood]

Maybe I need to spend some more time on my barrels. I just can't seem to move the fouling that is in the photo I posted above. I can pick it up with a jewellers screwdriver but a bronze brush just seems to pass over it.

[brett1868]

Don't be afraid to soak the barrel in Hoppe's for an hour or 2 before brushing, maybe time for a new brush?

[Drew]

The stove pipe problems with the 3.2gn loads are just from the light load not having enough recoil to cycle the action properly. Mine starts to stove pipe at 3.2gn of AP70 also. I use the 125gn round nose beveled base RNBB projectiles with 3.4gn of AP70. Nice light load recoil wise but with my 5" barrel it gives me 1200fps which well and truly makes power factor. Cycles fine but can stove pipe again if let to get too dirty. The winchester 60rnd bulk pack 9mm is 124 or 125gn round nose with 3.5gn of AP70. As for removing lead from the barrel I bought a roll of fine steel wool from burnings (lasts forever) wrap a bit around an old brass brush so it is slightly tight in the bore. Put plenty of oil on it and scrub the bore with it. Then a tight dry patch. Just a few passes and the jobs done. Then finish with a few passes of a brass brush and a dry patch or an oiled patch if storing for awhile. I do this on all my guns I shoot cast bullets out of.

[Drew]

Also make sure your flaring your cases enough so your no shaving the coating off the bullet when seating.