What's a good group?

[juststarting]

Hi all

What would be considered a good group, for a .308 at 100m (bipod from a bench)?

Not really knowing (in person) anyone who shoots more than me, I really don't have a baseline. So I am invoking the braintrust.

I can more often than not shoot 2cm group (been measuring with Range Buddy app). Been practicing On occasion, I can make a clover and other times, well, I don't know what's going on, but I suspect wife may be pulling bullets tampering with powder loads and re-seating them at night (I am sticking to this story) because they end up all over the place.

Then I look at guys at the range who look experienced, carefully shooting each round and taking notes (they look important, because I just take a photo) and I can't say their groups are fantastic. Although, that could be them just testing different hand-loads, who knows...

So, what would be considered a good group, for a .308 at 100m from a bench.

Discuss


Thanks

[GLS_1956]

I'd call your group pretty damn good. Better than I can normally shoot a 308. But to delve deeper into the subject a group's quality really depends up on several factors, the firearm, the ammunition, and the environment.

A mass produced low cost rifle is not going to have as great of a chance for a high degree of accuracy as one carefully fitted. Think of Remington's 783 vs their 40X, or if you compare a service rifle, like the Ishapore made 7.62mm/308Win version of a SMLE to a sporting rifle of the same era. Of course barrel and trigger as well as stock mating ill effect the end result too. The ammunition has to fit the gun too. I get 2 1/2 inch to 3 inch groups from my full length stocked CZ Mauser with 150 grain spire pointed, flat base bullets but it will throw groups in the 5 to 6 inch range with 200 grain round nosed bullets. Finally if the wind is blowing 100kph you're not going to get as nice a group as on a calm morning/

[Supaduke]

I think 1 inch per 100 meters is good. 1 inch @100, 2 inch @200 etc. If you are outdoors, anything sub Moa is good shooting. Anything less usually a bit of luck is involved. Like yourself, I read constantly about guy's amazing shooting. But when I go to the range I just don't see it for the majority. I don't think it would be a stretch of the imagination to think that there may be some online embellishment going on.
And as a side note ' juststarting' , that Mauser you shot on your blog is mine
So we have met. Pretty sure I saw you a few months ago at the militaria show in Altona too. No I'm not stalking you , I'm too lazy for that. (but if you could stock better snacks in your fridge for me next time I'm in there that would be great....)

[Gwion]

Shooting sub MOA is pretty good but it's consistency that counts. Every one will have a bad day but with attention to some fundamental techniques, keeping it around the inch with a proven load and rifle should really be simple. With a tuned load and a well accurised rifle, bringing it down to a standard 0.5-1" shouldn't be too hard. Most rifles with some tuning and good load development should be capable of this. With practice for technique that could come down below1/2".

I'm no gun but I can keep my 7-08 sub Moa out at 500yd in 10mph winds. At 100, I can shoot groups as tight as 1/3 of an inch or better. The 7-08 isn't hugely different to the 308.

[juststarting]

Supaduke, small world, hey! I think it may have been you trying to entertain those 2 ladies at the range too few months ago Yep, was at Militaria Expo too. Ran into few Enoughgunners there...

Say hi next time!

I'll make sure to buy something nice next time I go shopping. Don't touch my blue cheese and we'll be cool.

[juststarting]

Okies, so rifle wise, I am on Tikka CTR and occasionally on Browning X-Bolt. Both using hand loads. 168gn HPBT Noslers with 43gn of AR2208. Though I think I will be moving to 43.5 and 44 next time I go, I think.

Think I am at the stage where an auto powder thrower/measure thingy would be very helpful. Chronograph wouldn't go astray either, but baby steps.

[Supaduke]

Yep, the mother and daughter, that was me. And the 'trying' part ........ I showed them a great time and mumma couldn't get enough of my .223 and .308. I definitely felt some sexual tension . Just doing my bit to introduce new shooters to the sport. The daughter wasn't a bad shot for a newbie either, she loved the .22 lever and crossover.

The back story for those wondering. I was down the range with a mate. I am always happy to talk about my rifles to anyone interested, my milsurps often garner interest. Always happy to let people have a go too. 'Juststarting' wandered up while we were plinking with a 30-06 Mauser . Had a chat, he had a go at it then wandered off back to his bench. We continued shooting when I noticed a yummy mummy with teenage daughter in tow sitting behind us watching. I invited them up for a shoot and they loved it. Went through the whole box of toys with them. Shotty, .22's, 223, .308, 30-06. I reckon I made their day and gave them a memorable experience. Yes lads I can pull chicks at a gun range........ Skillz!!!!

[juststarting]

Confirmed.

[Baronvonrort]

Okies, so rifle wise, I am on Tikka CTR and occasionally on Browning X-Bolt. Both using hand loads. 168gn HPBT Noslers with 43gn of AR2208. Though I think I will be moving to 43.5 and 44 next time I go, I think.

I think 1/2 inch should be possible with Tikka when you find the right load, easier said than done.

[Gamerancher]

This is a 5 shot group shot @ 500m with my 40-70straight Shiloh Sharps 1874 using vernier tang sight, shot prone over cross-sticks.

ram group.jpg (383.86 KiB) Viewed 7931 times

410gr cast lead out of an RCBS mold. 68gr 2f Swiss black powder.
As my mate says" this smokeless powder and jacketed bullets is just a passing fad ".

[bigpete]

That's bloody impressive gamerancher !

[Oldbloke]

Hi all

What would be considered a good group, for a .308 at 100m (bipod from a bench)?

Not really knowing (in person) anyone who shoots more than me, I really don't have a baseline. So I am invoking the braintrust.

I can more often than not shoot 2cm group (been measuring with Range Buddy app). Been practicing On occasion, I can make a clover and other times, well, I don't know what's going on, but I suspect wife may be pulling bullets tampering with powder loads and re-seating them at night (I am sticking to this story) because they end up all over the place.

Then I look at guys at the range who look experienced, carefully shooting each round and taking notes (they look important, because I just take a photo) and I can't say their groups are fantastic. Although, that could be them just testing different hand-loads, who knows...

So, what would be considered a good group, for a .308 at 100m from a bench.

Discuss


Thanks

Anything under 1.5" @ 100meters for hunting.

[brett1868]

For me, a good group is a clover leaf or better @100m. If the holes ain't touching then I'm not finished the load development. Below video is a 3 shot group @100m with my Barrett M99 .416 using 395Gr CVLD Brass projectiles. A nice little 3 leaf clover just to the left of the 9 was the end result though ignore the other holes as they were a failed attempt to zero the .308 thermal scope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OYQVXdOZ20

[Supaduke]

I've heard if you shoot a small enough group you can open a wormhole to another dimension........

[Gamerancher]

O.P, in reality, in a standard hunting rifle, if you are getting 2cm groups off a bi-pod @ 100m, set and forget. You can spend a lot of $$, time and effort to shrink that by another .5cm. Anything that will consistently shoot under an inch is going to be good enough to go bush with. If you were looking to head shoot things at 400+m that's another kettle of fish. Have you tried taking the bi-pod off and shooting it off a proper bench rest? We shoot out to 500m in Metallic Silhouette and if my loads are at that inch @ 100 that's good enough for me. Okay, a couple of them do shoot way better than that but I wont spend countless hours and $ chasing it.
As for seeing what others are shooting at the range, don't sweat it. Just 'cause they're at the bench, it don't mean they are a bench-rest shooter.
Consistency is the name of the game, one "magic" tiny group isn't a good indicator. Work on your hold and trigger control will be more beneficial than playing with that load.

[bigfellascott]

f*** shootin groups at the range, get out bush and start shooting one hole groups on fur! why waste ammo/barrel killing paper

[brett1868]

For those who didn't watch the video in my earlier post. Nice little group using Aussie designed and made projectiles

416_100_Grp.JPG (29.05 KiB) Viewed 7849 times

[Supaduke]

No midgeys were harmed in the filming of this video.
The windscreen must get gooey when driving round those parts Brett.

Nice shooting, I would blame deflection off the bugs for not gettin an even smaller group

[brett1868]

I stopped at 3 cause I wasn't game to push my luck, my 4th shot is generally a flyer. That was shot earlier in the year up on my block, I couldn't believe the number of bugs in the air. I'm sure several million had brain explosions from the muzzle blast. Damn brake lifted everything in front of the muzzle and deposited it in my face and all through the car, had to put the blanket over my head to prevent getting a face full. I've since traded the Commodore in and bought a new Ford Ranger XLT so it'll be a better shooting platform, especially once the "Heavy Gun" mount gets fitted to the sports bar

[bluerob]

I've heard if you shoot a small enough group you can open a wormhole to another dimension........

A gun shop to buy more?

[Gamerancher]

f*** shootin groups at the range, get out bush and start shooting one hole groups on fur! why waste ammo/barrel killing paper

I believe that's what I told him. "set and forget". Go bush and use it. The rest of the post were just suggestions to try if he is looking to see if he can do better.
I am not a benchrest shooter. Silhouette is shot off-hand, as the legendary Harry Pope said "the bench proves the gun, standing proves the man."

[on_one_wheel]

What's a good group?

The group your happy with.

Or, a better group than whoever scored second place.

Or, A group that delivers a kill at the desired range.

[Oldbloke]

f*** shootin groups at the range, get out bush and start shooting one hole groups on fur! why waste ammo/barrel killing paper

Gets my vote.

[POD89]

O.P, in reality, in a standard hunting rifle, if you are getting 2cm groups off a bi-pod @ 100m, set and forget. You can spend a lot of $$, time and effort to shrink that by another .5cm. Anything that will consistently shoot under an inch is going to be good enough to go bush with. If you were looking to head shoot things at 400+m that's another kettle of fish. Have you tried taking the bi-pod off and shooting it off a proper bench rest? We shoot out to 500m in Metallic Silhouette and if my loads are at that inch @ 100 that's good enough for me. Okay, a couple of them do shoot way better than that but I wont spend countless hours and $ chasing it.
As for seeing what others are shooting at the range, don't sweat it. Just 'cause they're at the bench, it don't mean they are a bench-rest shooter.
Consistency is the name of the game, one "magic" tiny group isn't a good indicator. Work on your hold and trigger control will be more beneficial than playing with that load.

I have heard about taking the bi pod off.
especially with higher calibres.
is this because of the recoil?

[POD89]

you know what...
I just found a whole discussion on it on here called "bipod vs sand bags"

[juststarting]

you know what...
I just found a whole discussion on it on here called "bipod vs sand bags"

Waaait-a-secon did I start that thread too