Firearm homicide USA -vs- Australia.

[wade06]

In 2014 Australia had 0.16 gun homicides per 100,000... the US had 3.43 gun homicides per 100,000.... that's 21x higher (wiki)
In 2014 Australia had 0.93 gun deaths per 100,000... the US had 10.54 gun deaths per 100,000.... that's 11x higher (wiki)

I think our gun laws, while not perfect, are closer to where they should be than the US gun laws are.

And then there are mass shootings in the US....

[happyhunter]

What evidence is there that connects Australia's ridiculous gun laws with the lower homicide rate? We also have some very strict laws regarding illicit drugs but are one of the highest per capita users of illegal substances. I think our lower homicide rate be it shootings or other is more to do with living overall living standards than guns.

[wade06]

Not sure about the overall homicide rate but I'm sure the less guns you have the less gun deaths you will have (mass shootings, murder, suicide and other). Just look at the US figures above.

If you take the extreme case and took every gun you would theoretically have no gun deaths... just the same as if you banned all vehicles you would have no car fatalities. Of course this is stupid and there is a happy medium.

I don't think our gun laws are perfect in several areas but probably 98%+ of the Australian population would take them any day over the laws the US has.

[<<Genesis93>>]

In 2014 Australia had 0.16 gun homicides per 100,000... the US had 3.43 gun homicides per 100,000.... that's 21x higher (wiki)
In 2014 Australia had 0.93 gun deaths per 100,000... the US had 10.54 gun deaths per 100,000.... that's 11x higher (wiki)

I think our gun laws, while not perfect, are closer to where they should be than the US gun laws are.

And then there are mass shootings in the US....

Separating the mass shooting deaths from the 'less' than mass shooting deaths, ie. where 1 2 or 3 people are killed in one episode is disingenuous and quite frankly offensive to logical rational assessment, also a simplistic/simpleton assessment method... its only converting the data into an anti-gun tool.

Consider, if 10 people are killed during one event, its a 10 victim mass shooting death incidence (its rates on your graph). They are identified, they have families, they have a 'story', there is a loss expressed by many who didnt even know them.

If however 10 people are killed at different locations, at different time.....they rate no mention and dont make it to your graph or the news.

The mass killing victims are not more important, the individual victims are not less important or significant,
.......dont be a victim to anti-gun propaganda - all victims are equally significant.

Now....

Having said that, its obvious you've bypass the not insignificant effort I put into the info in this thread and gone straight to the all mighty font of all truth - wiki. Thanks for that, maybe read the thread THEN comment, hey

[wade06]

The mass killing victims are not more important, the individual victims are not less important or significant,
.......dont be a victim to anti-gun propaganda - all victims are equally significant.

I agree all victims are equal but i don't think the type of incidents are equal.
If you get rid of all guns the overall murder rate may not change much. I think people would just move to different weapons in premeditated cases. Spontaneous murders would probably come down though with less guns.
If you get rid of all guns the number of mass killings WOULD come down massively. (not that i think this is a good idea)

I did read your post i just think looking at reductions is one thing but looking at incidents per capita gives a truer picture.

[Gwion]

Wade, vehicles, bombs and knives have all been used in mass murders. It's not the weapon, it is the mentality and culture. Even when we had access to semi and full auto, our incidence of mass murder were much, much lower than the US. Our culture and social structure are vastly different even if they currently seem similar.

Incidence are on the rise in the US due to many other factors that I won't comment on.

[wade06]

Gwion, I agree with mos of what your saying but still think that easy access to high powered semi auto weapons makes mass murder so simple. I'd hate to ever see Australia go down the same path.

In the 2000's a mate an i went to a gun shop/range in Las Vegas. We showed our Australian drivers licence, brought some ammo and blasted away with an uzi, an MP5 (very nice) and a range of hand guns..... plus there was a 50 cal just sitting on the floor. It was heaps of fun but concerning at the same time.

[Gwion]

I agree that aspects of our laws are necessary and good but a lot of it is unnecessarily restrictive on responsible and law abiding adults while doing nothing to enhance firearms safety, illicit gun crime or promote public safety.

[<<Genesis93>>]

Gwion, I agree with mos of what your saying but still think that easy access to high powered semi auto weapons makes mass murder so simple. I'd hate to ever see Australia go down the same path.

OK, so you're one of those are you.....

"high powered semi auto weapons" is GCA speak. especially then associating 'mass murder'.
You, my friend, smell like a shill, like a troll, and if you ARE a firearm owner, you're probably the worst type, that withs a bolt action rifle and because YOU dont want any other type you think no-one else 'needs' anything else, semis, things you 'don't approve' of because you either believe the media hype, about AR15s 'being responsible' for huge carnage in the US when there is usually, perhaps a few dozen, maybe 20 on average a year of a total firearm homicide figure of around 10,000!.... or you simply dont like them or are scare of good people with guns.

Perhaps I misjudge you.

OK. lets do it once more.....

Firearm homicide has dropped QUICKER in the USA than Australia over the SAME period of 20yrs. and as shown by the official figures of firearm ownership, firearm numbers do not correlate with gun violence and homicide - with the well publicised increase in firearm numbers in Australia - there has been Zero increase in death, indeed the established downward trend continued post 96 (probably before your birth).

At the same time the homicide/gun homicide was reducing in the US, gun numbers have been soaring, with an almost exponential increase in background checks (indicating gun-shop purchases of handguns and long arms)....

All the laws will do nothing to reduce firearm homicide in the US as the vast majority is CRIMINAL activity, handgun use by people who would not be concerned at all with changes to the statues.... they already operate outside the law or are that misguided and messed up they care little.

The homicide is directly related to socio-economic factors...it IS RACIAL to a significant degree. where there are MANY BLACK Americans - there is MUCH violence and gun homicide. That is indisputable - Washington DC has an extraordinarily high gun homicide and over all murder rate of around 15 per 100k (+3 times national av), and a black population of 49% (+3 times national av).

Where there are fewer Blacks, there is generally a homicide rate much reduced, and usually closer and lower, than our total Homicide rate..... the racial connection is not limited to the USA.... in the Northern territory, with a black (Aboriginal) population of 42% - the overall homicide rate is 1.5 TIMES the US homicide rate. Yes it is! 6.9 vs 4.5 per 100k.... but that fact is inconvenient. Of course our media talking head never single out the NT, because our nation average is more politically expedient to discuss...

In the 2000's a mate an i went to a gun shop/range in Las Vegas. We showed our Australian drivers licence, brought some ammo and blasted away with an uzi, an MP5 (very nice) and a range of hand guns..... plus there was a 50 cal just sitting on the floor. It was heaps of fun but concerning at the same time.

So the sight of a 50 cal concerned you?..... right. ok. perhaps you though it was going to grow legs, walk out the store and shoot down a 747? (they can do that you know...)

[Gwion]

Gen, you rightly mention socio economic demographics without pointing out the socio-political issues faced in both countries by the racial demographics you cite. The issues do not come due to a high population of 'blacks'; it comes from the historic and ongoing policies of both US & Australian govts toward the respective demographics as well as residual socio political issues arising from said treatment.



As for calling people shills.....

[Gwion]

Also, I believe Wade was referring to the ease of access to such potential weapons as being concerning; not the firearm itself.

[<<Genesis93>>]

.... it comes from the historic and ongoing policies of both US & Australian govts toward the respective demographics as well as residual socio political issues arising from said treatment.

[Gwion]

Very mature, Gen.

Your blaming of 'blacks' (lumping African Americans in with indigenous Australians), without recognising the socio-political-economic plight of both (distinct) groups sounds suspiciously racist. Particularly backed by your violin response.

[<<Genesis93>>]

Very mature, Gen.

Your blaming of 'blacks' (lumping African Americans in with indigenous Australians), without recognising the socio-political-economic plight of both (distinct) groups sounds suspiciously racist. Particularly backed by your violin response.

You mean "You're" (yes, I like to help you out G)

Yes I am proudly racist. I like my race and prefer it over others... is that wrong?
Wrong that I'm not a despicably self-deprecating white Australian of European descent.
Oh yes... it is, we have to hate our own race while embracing all others....cause 'they' said so...

With that out the way...

I quoted a bit of reality, actual real figures and have another read, because I did NOT judge anyone.

"plight"? <bonus violin

[wade06]

Also, I believe Wade was referring to the ease of access to such potential weapons as being concerning; not the firearm itself.

Take for example the lindt cafe shooting, man monis had a 4 shot shot gun, 2 people died (one by police bullets).
If he had easy access to a semi auto rifle with a 30 round magazine you can be certain that a lot more people would have died.

Genisis, your using 35 firearm homicides and "only" a 45% reduction as the basis of your argument.
Surely you would concede this homicide number would only be higher if there were more guns and looser gun laws in Australia?

Yes i do own a gun http://enoughgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5094&p=98827#p98827 and plan on getting another couple . I've been shooting for about 25 years off and on but only just got my licence.

[Gwion]

The racist part was you lumping two distinctly separate racial groups as being linked to higher murder rate purely through virtue of their skin colour. That, in and of itself, is being judgmental.

Yes, being racist is just crap.

You don't have to hate your own race or heritage to be a non-racist. Also, recognising the historical disruption of culture carried out by one people against another does not require self loathing; all it takes is intelligence and compassion.

The base cause of higher crime and violence rates in the places you cited has nothing to do with demographic skin colour and everything to do with the socio-political-economic history and its effects on that particular demographic in the current reality. Further, it is important to recognise how these historical policies of cultural disruption inform current attitudes and interactions between demographics: ie: the hang over effect and how it creates a self perpetuating cycle of hatred and violence between (and with in) various groups.

[wade06]

What evidence is there that connects Australia's ridiculous gun laws with the lower homicide rate? We also have some very strict laws regarding illicit drugs but are one of the highest per capita users of illegal substances.

The difference is that drugs are still easily available... fire arms aren't (especially hand guns and semi auto).

If it was possible to removed every firearm from Australia there could be no gun deaths. If everyone had guns and the right to carry and there would be a lot more gun deaths than there is at the moment. There is a happy medium and personally our laws aren't to far off it.

I disagree with our laws on suppressors, pump action shot guns, semi auto rimfires, paintball and airsoft guns. The rest i am generally happy with.

[Gwion]

Problem is, it will not stop violent deaths or even lower the rate...

[Gwion]

Deleted: edit not quote!

[happyhunter]

What evidence is there that connects Australia's ridiculous gun laws with the lower homicide rate? We also have some very strict laws regarding illicit drugs but are one of the highest per capita users of illegal substances.

The difference is that drugs are still easily available... fire arms aren't (especially hand guns and semi auto).

If it was possible to removed every firearm from Australia there could be no gun deaths. If everyone had guns and the right to carry and there would be a lot more gun deaths than there is at the moment. There is a happy medium and personally our laws aren't to far off it.

I disagree with our laws on suppressors, pump action shot guns, semi auto rimfires, paintball and airsoft guns. The rest i am generally happy with.

Illegal drugs and illegal guns are equally available in Australia. In fact, the two black markets compliment the other.

It would be impossible to remove all guns from Australia. Every day there are more guns, legal and illegal, entering Australia. Gun law does nothing to prevent crime. If gun law was effective countries like Brazil would not have the very high
rates of crime involving firearms. Gun crime (and most violent crime) is a result of urban poverty and cultural attitudes.

[wade06]

Illegal drugs and illegal guns are equally available in Australia. In fact, the two black markets compliment the other.

I often get offered drugs on the streets, I never get offered firearms. Sure illegal firearms are available but for most people its not easy and that's because of our gun laws.

As a gun owner i'm certainly not proposing the removal of all guns, i think our laws are pretty balanced at the moment.
I was saying that no guns would mean no gun deaths, lots of guns means more gun deaths... this can't be argued.

[Gwion]

As a gun owner i'm certainly not proposing the removal of all guns, i think our laws are pretty balanced at the moment.
I was saying that no guns would mean no gun deaths, lots of guns means more gun deaths... this can't be argued.

Just wait a while until you find a stray 22lr round on a bench and think, "crap... if the cops had seen that.....". It will happen. I am very careful and i have had those moments. Let's see how balanced you think the laws are then!

As for "no guns, no gun deaths": well, its a pretty pointless argument, isn't it. A truism, maybe, but a completely futile one. I have a cousin who made a shot gun in metal work in high school in the late 1980s (he got in quite a bit of trouble for it). Considering a high school kid can make one under the nose of the teacher it is a ludicrous argument to say "if there were no guns....".

Beside the futility of the truism, no guns would not mean no violent deaths/homicides. Knives, cars, bombs (improvised) have all been used for mass murder in the last 10 years across the world. Where there is a will, there is a way; that is the whole point. Violent crime and homicide are a cultural product, not the result of an available weapon. After all, the most common cause of violent death/homicide in Australia lists "no weapon", as in, fists and feet or a hard landing surface or a combination of the above. Are you suggesting that a homicide with a gun is inherently worse than a homicide where someone is beaten to death? Is the loss of life more significant? Is the tragedy to those left behind more compounded because a gun was used?

The fact of gun deaths in Australia is that is historically and currently largely and almost solely the domain of the criminal underworld and police. We have already established that the laws do nothing to deter criminal use of firearms because by definition, a criminal has little or no regard for the law.

Don't take my word for it. Look up the Aust. Institute of Criminology and you will find a lot of very clear data. Also look up Aust. Bureau of Statistics.

[GLS_1956]

Last year, 2015, the number of homicides in the U.S.A. dropped compared to the previous year, 2014, agreed? Agreed. Last year millions, yes millions, of new guns were sold in the U.S.A.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... 0-2014.xls

Regretfully the FBI has not released the official number of homicides in the year 2015 but they have stated the number is down

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/425272/

All I can say is more guns, fewer homicides.

[safeshot]

recently here in WA the ABC on 6WF were going over this very issue. No massacres! was the cry. I phoned them to remind them of a nursing home burnt down by an arsonist and a backpackers hostel ..same.. The studio stooge muttered something about just guns to which I added so the occupants of the nursing home and the backpackers didn't matter, if you are going to tell the story tell it all..
I drew the impression that 6WF is not used to getting phone calls that remind them to tell both sides, all sides of the story.

[David Brown]

Gwion, I agree with mos of what your saying but still think that easy access to high powered semi auto weapons makes mass murder so simple. I'd hate to ever see Australia go down the same path.

In the 2000's a mate an i went to a gun shop/range in Las Vegas. We showed our Australian drivers licence, brought some ammo and blasted away with an uzi, an MP5 (very nice) and a range of hand guns..... plus there was a 50 cal just sitting on the floor. It was heaps of fun but concerning at the same time.

Concerning? Why would that be?

Seriously, even the shooting community here has become normalised to this kind of fear.

We go to the USA a lot, this year 6+ weeks total. and average that for the last 10. I never feel uneasy except in Dallas, New Orleans, New York and LA when I am not carrying or someone I am with is not carrying, then yeah......but the rest of the USA is awesome and I always feel safe around firearms and ranges. The people you meet are awesome and not to be frightened of.

Maybe I have misunderstood your post but really the American people have a crime problem not a firearm problem. It is us here in Australia that have a firearm problem......we just do not have a 2nd amendment or similar.

[wade06]

It was concerning because if I was a criminal I could have shot the one guy running the gun shop (with the gun he gave me) then nicked off with numerous semi auto hand guns an Uzi an mp5 a 50 cal and others plus all the ammo I needed.

Fire arm access is way too easy in the US.... It's not easy to get a firearm in Australia and that's how it should be.

I doubt we will see changes to the US gun laws but background checks, national gun registration, buying through dealers and gun safes should be the minimum.

[doc]

Fire arm access is way too easy in the US.... It's not easy to get a firearm in Australia and that's how it should be.

I disagree.

The American constitution gives citizens the rights to bear arms. America has been what it has been because of it's entire foundation. America is worse off with the attempts to move away from it's foundation over the last half century or so...

My personal opinion (and it's just that), is that the optimum solution is somewhere between America and Australia. Allow anyone who is fit and proper to have the right to firearms. No genuine reason required, but deny criminals. And I suspect that many Americans would like to see criminals denied legal access to firearms, but I know there are big problems with that ideology.

One of the issues is that we know politicians won't stop there. They take a small piece, and then they want more, until they want total control.

Another problem is the ability for the government to redefine who is a 'fit and proper' person. So easily what was originally called freedom of speech and someone's own opinion which was fine for centuries is now being redefined as 'hate speech'. Someone could be considered a fine citizen a couple of decade ago, and by remaining the same person with the same opinions they've always had, they are bigots now.

How easy then would it be for the government to also redefine people who don't agree with their ideologies as no longer fit and proper as well.

We've seen it happen here in Australia (first with the registry and the promise that it wouldn't be used to take guns off us - and then the confiscation), and now still not satisfied the push for more, more MORE! And then they change the definition of genuine reason to remove one of the most genuine (self defense)....

The reason I believe that the NRA and American's aren't budging an inch is because they know if they do - the government will take that inch, then take a mile and still not be satisfied. Australia is living proof of that. Even if the NRA wanted to give the government just a little and secretly agreed with some of the points being made, they know that it would be disastrous in the long run.

The last thing America needs is to follow in Australia's footsteps - especially with the amount of firearms already in circulation. This would just leave the innocent defenseless, and the criminals with the majority of the firearms.

[wade06]

The American constitution gives citizens the rights to bear arms.

I'm still not sure how "background checks, national gun registration, buying through dealers and gun safes" impinges on the right to bear arms.

Re background checks, If you have committed certain crimes or have mental issues then you shouldn't necessarily retain the right to firearms access.
Just like anything else, molest kids you lose the right to work with kids, commit fraud you lose the right to work in finance, commit driving offences you lose the right to drive.

Like I've said before, i don't agree with 4 or 5 things in our gun laws but a very small percentage of Australians would ever want the US gun laws here.

[doc]

Your ideas and my ideology seem to be in agreement, but how do you address the issues I raised that in implementing this, you also open up areas and avenues for the government to abuse the process? It happened here - it will certainly happen there as well...

If Australia had reversed some of it's bad decisions, was sensible, and the government showed that they could be trusted to keep it's promises - then there would be a precedent set that shows that a government can be sensible with this stuff and that it works... But unfortunately the precedent and evidence that Australia has set is contrary - take more instead of giving freedom back.

Until that can be addressed then IMO the NRA is doing the right thing by not moving. espeically with what's happening in America with their government at the moment - they are proving quite the opposite - especially with Obama forcing more 'Executive Decisions' and infringing on each state's sovereignty and the mess with the upcoming elections.

[Jandamurra]

Also, I believe Wade was referring to the ease of access to such potential weapons as being concerning; not the firearm itself.

Take for example the lindt cafe shooting, man monis had a 4 shot shot gun, 2 people died (one by police bullets).
If he had easy access to a semi auto rifle with a 30 round magazine you can be certain that a lot more people would have died.

Genisis, your using 35 firearm homicides and "only" a 45% reduction as the basis of your argument.
Surely you would concede this homicide number would only be higher if there were more guns and looser gun laws in Australia?

Yes i do own a gun http://enoughgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5094&p=98827#p98827 and plan on getting another couple . I've been shooting for about 25 years off and on but only just got my licence.

I for one concede no such thing.
This is only a bit of common wisdom that turns out to be illogical and easily refuted by the facts.
Are you seriously saying that if you were in a situation where a gang was eyeing yuou over and they learned you had a gun, they wouldn't back off? Do you really think they'd say "We were only going to rob that guy and bash him up a bit until we saw that gun he's got. Now we're gonna kill him as well, and it doesn't matter if one of us dies in the process?
Arte you serious?
US states that allow carry of any kind have experienced a drop in crime and violence.
Of course correlation is not causation but can you give any other reason why the crime rates fell?
If you take away areas with lots of blacks in them, the rate goes down to something like that of Australia.
I must stress, though, that I think there's a non-racial reason for this-the decline of the black nuclear family.
Single-parent families are generally no good for raising law-abiding kids who are prepared to sacrifice immediate gain for long-term benefits like education and savings in the bank.