Anyone shoot traditional muzzleloaders ?

[bigpete]

I ask for 2 reasons,curiosity being one, the other being that I'd like to know if anyone has shot unpatched round ball out of a smooth bore ?

[bladeracer]

I ask for 2 reasons,curiosity being one, the other being that I'd like to know if anyone has shot unpatched round ball out of a smooth bore ?

What do you mean by "traditional"?
I haven't shot unpatched balls, mainly because they'd be hopeless.
The patch is what provides chamber pressure, the ball is under-size so you can push it down the bore.
Trying to force an over-sized ball all the way down a smooth or rifled barrel sounds like bloody hard work.

[bigpete]

Traditional means other than inline. Actually I've pushed my .725 RB down the barrels of my Stevens shotgun with a lot note ease than I load prb in my 50 cal. Actually patching also helps with engaging the rifling in a rifled barrel. If your using a shotgun,you normally load an overpower was between the powder and the projectile to provide the gas seal.

[bladeracer]

Traditional means other than inline. Actually I've pushed my .725 RB down the barrels of my Stevens shotgun with a lot note ease than I load prb in my 50 cal. Actually patching also helps with engaging the rifling in a rifled barrel. If your using a shotgun,you normally load an overpower was between the powder and the projectile to provide the gas seal.

Yes, I know the patch works in the rifling, but you specifically asked about unrifled barrels

With a shotgun though you would also ram an over-shot wad down to hold the shot against the charge.
I would think loading the ball between two wads would help, but I still doubt you'd get proper pressure.
I also can't imagine why you wouldn't want to simply patch the ball, it's quicker and easier than using wads, cheaper too.

[bladeracer]

I could perhaps try chronoing a patched ball against a double-wadded unpatched ball sometime.
I've only got .440 balls for my .45 though. Some Hornady's and some I cast myself.

[bigpete]

Because I currently have a goodly supply of .725 RB which I seriously doubt I'll get down the barrel with any thickness of patch material and I don't really want to go and buy .690 RB if I don't have to and yes you do need an overshot card too for shot,I'm kinda hoping I don't necessarily need one if I use the .725 RB as they should be a semi tight fit already

[bigpete]

What's this chronographing you speak of ? sounds like the devils work lol

[bigpete]

Actually not super fussed on speed although I understand what your trying to achieve. I have zero idea how fast any of my loads really go,never really stops them from doing their job ( except that one time lol )

[bladeracer]

Actually not super fussed on speed although I understand what your trying to achieve. I have zero idea how fast any of my loads really go,never really stops them from doing their job ( except that one time lol )

I loaded some under-sized .303 cast bullets without realising, normally just under 1400fps loads shot around 510fps
That's what I'd expect of trying to shoot unpatched balls.

[bladeracer]

Because I currently have a goodly supply of .725 RB which I seriously doubt I'll get down the barrel with any thickness of patch material and I don't really want to go and buy .690 RB if I don't have to and yes you do need an overshot card too for shot,I'm kinda hoping I don't necessarily need one if I use the .725 RB as they should be a semi tight fit already

If it's not a muzzle loader, and it's an open choke, and they're soft lead - then I'd just shoot them and see if they group (round balls from a smoothbore though are not known for their accuracy, even when patched - I think the Brown Bess was good for maybe 25MoA on a good day). But if you have to force them all the way down the barrel I doubt I could be bothered. But if they're hardcast they're not likely to deform at impact, and I'd be careful swaging them through any kind of choke.

[bigpete]

It certainly is a muzzleloader I want to try them through. I already shoot them through my Stevens coach gun. I just want to see if I can make use of it on larger game such as goats. I'd be 99.9% certain it is open choked, and the balls are pure lead and soft as butter ( almost ) check out my thread on loading 12 gauge brass cases,they're the same projectiles

[bladeracer]

It certainly is a muzzleloader I want to try them through. I already shoot them through my Stevens coach gun. I just want to see if I can make use of it on larger game such as goats. I'd be 99.9% certain it is open choked, and the balls are pure lead and soft as butter ( almost ) check out my thread on loading 12 gauge brass cases,they're the same projectiles

What sort of accuracy are you seeing through the Stevens with them?
As long as the balls are tight enough to stay seated against the charge, I'd just use a lubed over-powder wad and see how well they shoot.

[bigpete]

They're not great,probably right around the 25moa you mentioned,perhaps a bit smaller than that. Guess I was hoping someone may have actually done what I'm planning to try and could give me some tips on what to try or look out for.
Anyway,how about some photos ? Lots of photos of every other sort of firearm on the site but not many proper muzzleloaders. I'll have get some pics up of mine soon

[bladeracer]

They're not great,probably right around the 25moa you mentioned,perhaps a bit smaller than that. Guess I was hoping someone may have actually done what I'm planning to try and could give me some tips on what to try or look out for.
Anyway,how about some photos ? Lots of photos of every other sort of firearm on the site but not many proper muzzleloaders. I'll have get some pics up of mine soon

I've been meaning to get some pics of my firearms for my brother.

I don't know much about this one.
It's a Hawken style made by a Kiwi called Tony Hawkins in New Zealand.
I've read that he formed "Hawkins Arms" in about '73 and closed down about '99 but I haven't even been able to confirm that much. There is a video on Youtube of a bloke test firing the same rifle as mine.
I have no idea of proofing or recommended charges. I bought it from Graeme Forbes and even he couldn't tell me anything at all about it.
I've been shooting FFFg from 50gns to 75gns with 0.005" lubed patches and 0.440" balls. I went with 5-thou patches to allow me to try different thicknesses until I find the optimum.
I really need to put aside a bunch of hours to do some load development for accuracy, but I'll have to clean it for every shot for consistency. I fired seven identical consecutive 50gn loads and velocity went from 1000fps from the clean bore up to 2100fps! I think partly due to bore fouling but also because I have no consistent seating depth on the ramrod yet - difficult to determine that until I determine how much powder to run. I understand as pressures build it'll start tearing the patches and accuracy will drop off. As with centrefire rifles, I'm guessing there's a window in which velocity will be fairly consistent across minor variations in charge weight, and I'm hoping that'll be around the 1400fps mark.

[Tank]

Never fired an unpatched ball out of a smooth bore Pete but can only concur with the expected massive velocity drop. I have fired .565 ball from a .577 Enfield unpatched....easily loaded, lousy accuracy and noticeably longer flight time to target.
It won't hurt to give them a crack though. You won't hurt the firearm. Pressure will be bugger all.
BP is fun stuff!
Regs,
Tank.

[Tank]

They're not great,probably right around the 25moa you mentioned,perhaps a bit smaller than that. Guess I was hoping someone may have actually done what I'm planning to try and could give me some tips on what to try or look out for.
Anyway,how about some photos ? Lots of photos of every other sort of firearm on the site but not many proper muzzleloaders. I'll have get some pics up of mine soon

I've been meaning to get some pics of my firearms for my brother.

I don't know much about this one.
It's a Hawken style made by a Kiwi called Tony Hawkins in New Zealand.
I've read that he formed "Hawkins Arms" in about '73 and closed down about '99 but I haven't even been able to confirm that much. There is a video on Youtube of a bloke test firing the same rifle as mine.
I have no idea of proofing or recommended charges. I bought it from Graeme Forbes and even he couldn't tell me anything at all about it.
I've been shooting FFFg from 50gns to 75gns with 0.005" lubed patches and 0.440" balls. I went with 5-thou patches to allow me to try different thicknesses until I find the optimum.
I really need to put aside a bunch of hours to do some load development for accuracy, but I'll have to clean it for every shot for consistency. I fired seven identical consecutive 50gn loads and velocity went from 1000fps from the clean bore up to 2100fps! I think partly due to bore fouling but also because I have no consistent seating depth on the ramrod yet - difficult to determine that until I determine how much powder to run. I understand as pressures build it'll start tearing the patches and accuracy will drop off. As with centrefire rifles, I'm guessing there's a window in which velocity will be fairly consistent across minor variations in charge weight, and I'm hoping that'll be around the 1400fps mark.

Bladeracer get hold of some Alliant Black MZ and forget 'cleaning after each shot'.
It is great stuff and cleanup with Ballistol no more difficult than smokeless.
I love the stuff!
Regs,
Tank.

I know this is 'not pc' in black powder circles but it works!

[bigpete]

IMG_20160831_084448.jpg (1.23 MiB) Viewed 12040 times

here's my 50 cal dikar and my shooting bag and powder horn

IMG_20160831_084500.jpg (900.8 KiB) Viewed 12040 times

close up of my bag and horn. All homemade. The piece of antler is my powder measure,it holds 80gn of 3f. I shoot .495 balls and .010 patches spit lubed and get pretty consistent 2" groups at 50m off a rest. Nowhere near that that freehand . No idea exactly how fast it shoots but going off a chart I was given supposedly around 1800fps. I have tried 360gn .500 Conicals through it and they shoot terrible,leading me to think it has a slightly larger than .50 bore. Or its a bit worn lol

[Tank]

Noice!
It'll most likely be the twist rate.
My Deerstalker has 1:48 twist that'll shoot round and maxi/conicals.
Yours might only 1:60 odd.....round ball only.
Fun stuff eh!
Regs,
Tank.

[bigpete]

14726054818401806277147.jpg (863.73 KiB) Viewed 11237 times

here's the kit I'm setting up for grandpas shot gun. Left to rightish: tin of lubed cushion wads,6 .725 RB,shot pouch full of size 4 shot,cap holder,plastic bag full of dry cushion wads,leather over powder wads and overshot cards,piwder flask set at 2¼ drams,flint and steel fire kit,first aid kit,sharpening stone,and cleaning bag.

1472605818704-166989481.jpg (1.15 MiB) Viewed 11237 times

all of it goes into my fallow skin possible bag. Still have a few things to add though

[bladeracer]

Bladeracer get hold of some Alliant Black MZ and forget 'cleaning after each shot'.
It is great stuff and cleanup with Ballistol no more difficult than smokeless.
I love the stuff!
Regs,
Tank.

I know this is 'not pc' in black powder circles but it works!

Is this stuff a BP alternative?
I'll see if my local can get me some.

[bladeracer]

My Hawkins Arms .45.

[bigpete]

That looks short and handy

[bladeracer]

That looks short and handy

It looks short because the barrel is so fat
I was surprised when I saw it as I'd been expecting any BP rifle to be five-feet long at least.
Considering the wall thickness of the barrel I'm glad it's no longer though.
24" barrel, overall length is 1010mm (50mm shorter than my 22" Ruger Americans), length of pull is 13.5" and it weighs 3.35kg.
The wrist has been drilled, I'm guessing for some sort of peep sight which would be nice.

Took some others while I was at it.

[bigpete]

Hmmm maybe I'd better measure my barrel I thought mine was 24" but its a fair bit longer than yours maybe its 28 ?

[TheDude]

Bladeracer get hold of some Alliant Black MZ and forget 'cleaning after each shot'.
It is great stuff and cleanup with Ballistol no more difficult than smokeless.
I love the stuff!
Regs,
Tank.

I know this is 'not pc' in black powder circles but it works!

Is this stuff a BP alternative?
I'll see if my local can get me some.

Yep it's a BP alternative. I've used it in my 58 2-band Enfield and 45 hawken and it's pretty good. Cleans up well, similar velocities to equivalent loads to 2F. It's more expensive at about $70 a pound compared to $55 per kg for wano. Also I've heard next shipment into the country is a long way off

[bladeracer]

Yep it's a BP alternative. I've used it in my 58 2-band Enfield and 45 hawken and it's pretty good. Cleans up well, similar velocities to equivalent loads to 2F. It's more expensive at about $70 a pound compared to $55 per kg for wano. Also I've heard next shipment into the country is a long way off

My LGS charged me $90 for a kilo of FFF Wano
Does that mean there's none around currently?
Going to take me a while to burn through what I have already, so no rush

[bigpete]

That's what I pay for a kilo

[bladeracer]

That's what I pay for a kilo

Graeme Forbes sells it for $70/kg.

I don't mind as I don't expect to use a lot of it, a kilo is maybe 200 shots or more.

[TheDude]

Yep it's a BP alternative. I've used it in my 58 2-band Enfield and 45 hawken and it's pretty good. Cleans up well, similar velocities to equivalent loads to 2F. It's more expensive at about $70 a pound compared to $55 per kg for wano. Also I've heard next shipment into the country is a long way off

My LGS charged me $90 for a kilo of FFF Wano
Does that mean there's none around currently?
Going to take me a while to burn through what I have already, so no rush

Dunno about down south, usually get MZ from rebel and they are out and won't have any for a while. Saw mention from Nioa on another forum who said it could be 8-12 months for next import.

The local shops around Brisbane are asking $90-95 per kg for wano so we now get it from combat simulation systems out at helidon for about $55 per kg.

[Tank]

Bladeracer get hold of some Alliant Black MZ and forget 'cleaning after each shot'.
It is great stuff and cleanup with Ballistol no more difficult than smokeless.
I love the stuff!
Regs,
Tank.


I know this is 'not pc' in black powder circles but it works!

Is this stuff a BP alternative?
I'll see if my local can get me some.

Yep it's a BP alternative. I've used it in my 58 2-band Enfield and 45 hawken and it's pretty good. Cleans up well, similar velocities to equivalent loads to 2F. It's more expensive at about $70 a pound compared to $55 per kg for wano. Also I've heard next shipment into the country is a long way off

It's about 10% hotter than the 3F loads I've used in my 50 and 54.....it is granulated about the same size as 2F though.
Pays to just ease up slowly on it load wise....it's got some power!
Compared to using Wano....it's a dream for clean up.....only paying $58.00 a bottle here in SA so it is considerably cheaper than Swiss (and obtainable).
Going to try it through my 1861 Navy this weekend.
Regs,
Tank.