Advice not to use this .308 factory ammo

[Wapiti]

So last year I put up a post here about this Winchester 135gn Factory ammo, which stated that it is 3,000fps on the box.
However, I thought it was a bit hot, so chrony'd it and it came to almost 3,200fps which is absolutely mental. Check it out maybe.
I believe the Sierra 135gn projectiles it uses, including the Buffalo River/ADI Aussie ammo loaded with these bullets, is way more flexible and overall useavble than the super fragile detonating 130gn and 125gn Speer hand grenades. Way better on pigs as an all-round projectile.

Anyway I was out for a run this afternoon, with the same rifle in that other post I mentioned from last year, and loaded up a mag of this ammo (the Win stuff). First shot, a few K's from the house, off came the first head. The second target couldn't believe what was going on so his head went vertical too. But this shot sprayed my face with what felt like hot sand, and smoke poured out of the action.
I tried to open the bolt but not a chance, frozen shut. Now I'm not a little bloke and still work on that, so this was unusual. So cut short the trip as I didn't have the D-gun this time, and straight back to the shed.
It took a lead-filled rubber mallet to open the action, that was after a good spray of WD40 to penetrate awhile, and after a short wait the bolt was up after some big hits. Swaged to the end of the bolt was the case.

I could not get it off by hand, as it had formed into the extractor in the Rem 700 action and compleley swelled into the "3 rings of steel" counterbored bolt nose), and flowed right into the ejector hole, which it pushed right in.
I knew the extractor was inline with the right-hand locking lug, so grabbed the case in the vice and twisted the bolt away, in the same direction as the ejector would throw the case out normally. This would stress the extractor the least. The case came off, but basically I had to tear it off.

A HUGE overload. Here is the case. The little ring is all that is left of the primer, it was atomised.
To it's left is the case fired a few seconds prior, same ammo.

OL3.jpg (682.89 KiB) Viewed 1909 times

[Wapiti]

Here are the cases from the top. You will see the primer pocket has opened up massively, and the primer is back to the universe elements.
You will also see the bright circle on the unexploded case, where the ejector mark shows.

OL1.jpg (682.3 KiB) Viewed 1907 times

[Wapiti]

Here is the ammo in question.
DO NOT USE IT.
I have a few brands of rifles, I buy the ones I reckon are what I prefer from an engineering perspective. But I reckon here, if this was a lesser bolt action strength-wise and the way the case head is completely enclosed, I might be missing a few eyes.

I will be pulling EVERY ONE of these bullets, dumping the powder, re-neck sizing and putting in a load of 2206H that I can check. This ammo hasn't crimped projectiles, so it will be p*ss-easy with my collet puller in a spare press. They will be more accurate anyway, at least then I can use the primer and projectiles in the field, and be able to re-use these cases.

OL2.jpg (683.63 KiB) Viewed 1902 times

[bladeracer]

Wow! What test barrel length did they get the 3000fps from though? 7.62x51mm might be from a short AR-length barrel?

[Wapiti]

In the 16" barrel in my PWS MK2-16 which is basically an SR25, I was getting nearly 2900fps.
My handloads however with the 135gn Sierra bullet, as a middling to hot load, are flat out getting 2700.
But at that speed, they are just right for always-instant results and very accurate.
You cannot load up a semi-auto like you can a bolt gun. It screws with the timing of the pressure, still being too high as the bolt is rotating to unlock. Blown primers is the result.
I went through a 20-rd mag of this Win ammo in the PWS doing a run, and came back without the firing pin tip.
Luckily, the dealer I got it from has firing pins, bolt heads, extractors in stock, I just walked in and walked out with all those parts. Only with the correct license though of course. Firing pins are under $40.

That almost 3200fps was from this 20" barrel rem 700 !!! 3200fps would be insane in a 26" let alone a 20.

Accuracy you can expect from modern semi-autos with these unreal 135gn projectiles. You just have to be sane with your load development.
People will say, "semi-autos aren't as accurate as bolt guns". Rubbish. And this was with a 1-8x scope at 110m, not the must-have 20x plus that hunters seem to need nowadays.

PWS 135 S 45-2206H.jpg (687.43 KiB) Viewed 1876 times

That new .308 and .277 ammo in the US with the steel case heads makes complete sense to me now. They can get 80,000psi and not blow case heads. Brass is the weak link for sure.

[bladeracer]

I agree that it's definitely a hot load alright.

[mchughcb]

Geezus that's bad.

[Fester]

A new level of Winshitter.
I wouldn't even bother reloading it as their cases lucky to make 2 firings.

Apart from my Aussie made >22lr HP subs, the only thing I will buy from the brand is the cheap target shotty ammo as it hasn't failed YET.

Take a refund, as the more that goes back, the better.

To risk losing an eye for explosive components that should never have made it to the boxing machine wouldn't even be allowed in any other industry apart from shooting.

[Blr243]

Send the info to the manufacturer

[bigrich]

FMD ! your lucky your heads still in one piece and you've got both eyes ! i wonder if this ammo is australia sold only ammo ? in the USA lawyers would be rubbing their hands together with glee . the importer/supplier needs to issue a recall right now !

[wrenchman]

I think I have some of that that was gifted to me because they were having issues in there gun to the point of having bolt issues I intend to pull it and reload it

[Wapiti]

Thanks for your comments guys, Yes I might send an email off to Winchester but can't see how they'll give a stuff.
Considering how the US is a semi-auto filled place, I can't imagine that ammo getting away with that without a big issue.

On Rich's comment, see the box?
The part number (the lot number is stamped under one end flap) of the ammo is AU762135
So to me, AU is "Australia" and the rest is the calibre 7.62 and the bullet weight is 135gns.


I was going through the part used boxes to get this stuff away from accidentally being used again, I came across an example of the primers that "disc" and jet the tip of the firing pin with red-hot gas.
In the autoloader, irrespective of the gas setting, EVERY one fired pierces the primer, as I found out. No other factory ammo, or any of my handloads, does that.
Winchester has dumped this stuff in Australia. What a mongrel thing to do. That's what I reckon anyway.

I put this up for you not to waste your money or damage your equipment, or the two eyes you might need.

PP1.jpg (698.51 KiB) Viewed 1803 times

[Wapiti]

Worst thing is, that when I went down to the coast to visit my oldies at Christmas, I dropped into Cleavers and amongst other stuff we picked up another two of the bulk packs of this ammo loose packed in the "free steel ammo case".
I did that because with the costs to reload nowadays, this factory stuff was the cost of handloading, with cases left over basically for free. So what do I do.
Make sure any of you don't do the same, and just pull the rest as I run low on ammo set aside.

[mchughcb]

Never seen a factory ammo primers like that before.

[Wapiti]

So, an update for those interested in what's in factory ammo and how (in)consistent it is. If it is.
I pulled a heap of bullets, and they were indeed crimped in but the press and collet tool has no trouble. My other presses have 7 and 8 dies in them respectively and are all set up, so I dragged an unused press bolted to a RHS offcut into the workshop area. Then dumped each individual case of powder into some electronic scales, to speed things up. Using a beam scale would've had me reaching for my hair to pull out which won't work, because in summer I shave my head every coupla days.
The setup.

Ppress.jpg (678.54 KiB) Viewed 1705 times

So here's the list. Couple of things to mention.
The difference between high and low weights was 0.8gns. Not unexpected from automatically thrown powder, if it was coarse stick powder like AR2209. It throws from powder throwers just as inaccurately, even worse at times. Too much variation for me, and WAY to much when the load is up at the point of being dangerous.
But this powder is a super-fine ball powder, as I'd expect from Winchester because that's what they make. So to me, a 0.8gn variation is pretty much rubbish.
We know this load is super-hot, and when I blew this case it was a super-hot afternoon, and ball powder is very temperature sensitive.
The high loads of 48.6 are most likely the ones giving the trouble. On a frosty -5' morning here in winter, probably no drama.

So what is the powder, to compare whether this load is hot or not.
It can't be 760, because that would be a 120% volume load with 135gn bullets at that incredible velocity.
It most likely would've been 748, which is a great powder for 308 cases and gives top velocities but can give high pressures.
Uncle Nick Harvey's last reloading manual shows these max loads:
With 130gn bullets: 52gns is max
With 150gn bullets, 48gns is max. And I reckon, max for sure.

So, a high of 48.6 and a low of 47.8 with 135's are in no way dangerous overloads compared to the advice in that manual for 748 powder.
So it's not 748.
Anyone got any ideas?

PowLst.jpg (680.65 KiB) Viewed 1705 times

Now some info, these Winchester cases ARE NOT the same as any commercial Win cases. They are super thick, and so are the necks. With standard Win 308 cases (and I've been measuring them for 20 years), loaded rounds measure a diameter of .334 thou. Deduct 2-3 thou and you have your accurate consistent neck grip of that much. Personal preference and use needs will determine which dimension you want.
These WMA stamped, Winchester military cases, the necks of the loaded rounds are .339-340 thou. So I picked a titanium bush for the neck die that was .336. So I had at least 003 thou neck tension, because sometimes this ammo is going to go through an autoloader and definitely NOT babied.
Plus, I crimp these cartridges.

I plan to use the standard ball powder, but I'm going to put it back in the neck-sized cases with a load of 46.5gns.
This i will try, looking for pressure signs and measuring the case heads before and after firing.
Too much? that's almost 2gns less than standard, and each case will be EXACTLY the same, not all over the place.
It's hot here this time of the year, so a good time to decide on an all-year load.

[No1Mk3]

The cases are NATO spec ( + in a circle) military (WMA = Winchester Military Ammunition) and despite the box are not made at Alton but either their Oxford, Mississippi, plant or sometimes Lake City (operated by Winchester), 21 = year of manufacture. This WMA headstamped ammo is known to be over-pressure and is marked as such on the back of the packets of 9mm, don't know about the blue 7.62 boxes as I don't have one in the collection. The 5.56x45 is known to range from 10 to 15% over specified max.
The powder is a military spec batch not equivalent to any commercial powder for the reloaders market but would be closest to 748.

[Wapiti]

Thanks for the info. Explains the powder charge being so over-pressure and not comparing to established load data with powder that's publicly available.
So this mob has history of making compromise ammo.
I guess individual rifles might shoot this differently, and others find it too hot.
Buyer beware.
Pulling the projectiles, sizing the necks in a die that does not deprime and adjusting the powder load is less time consuming that reassembling fired cases with new components, I suppose. So the components can be used.

Main thing is stashing and marking the unmodified ammo so it isn't accidentally used.

It will only be a matter of time that someone blows up a rifle and is injured seriously, if they haven't already. I wouldn't be surprised if this ammo has just been reboxed and sent over here to "out of sight, out of mind" Aus.

[Wapiti]

As a follow up, I had some time late this arvo so put together 5 cartridges with 46.5gn of the original powder in the necksized cases from the stash I'd pulled.
Remember that this ammo as out of the box was 90% 48.3gns, with a few at 48.5 and even 48.6gns.
I fired a factory everyday Winchester 130gn hollowpoint cartridge first (trhe ones with the massive hollow in the tip) to check what the Garmin chrony said.
Only one cartridge, but 2980fps.
Then I fired a 5-shot group with the reassembled 135gn stuff, and the average was just on 3,000fps, so back to the velocity on the box.
Which is nothing to complain about in a 20" vehicle-length barrel.
But that drop in around 2gns tops, dropped the velocity by nearly 200fps, this powder is high-energy and certainly an overload condition as sold.
Reminds me of 2225 in a 300RUM or 338Lapua, when you jump from 2217 to 2225 you get a big velocity increase, but a very large increase in recoil. Way uncomfortable especially in the RUM, as it comes back so fast.

Accuracy wasn't so great, group was 26mm at 110m, this rifle will do way better with the same bullet using 2206H powder, but each rifle is different as they say.
I fired the group, plus the round before it, from the mag with no waiting, which simulates field shooting. To me, waiting a few minutes between shots etc just masks what the rifle will do in field conditions, and you are just kidding yourself.
First round cold barrel shot is vitally important, as is all the others right on top of it.

So my wife's Sako Carbonlite shoots better than this with that factory WMA stuff, but I certainly don't want any overloads through that rifle with her shooting it, so I'll have to make sure all that ammo is downloaded to 46.5 as well, and zero rechecked. Results could deteriorate with the reduced powder charge, but it is a walkabout hunting rifle.