PPU brass issues

[bigrich]

hey fellas , i've had a funny thing happen to me when i've gone to reload my ruger m77 i recently had re barrelled into 7x57 . bought some 173gn PPU 7x57 factory ammo for sight in and to bed the new barrel in . went to resize and the rim won't fit in a standard shell holder , hornady #1 and RCBS #3 . the groove in front of the rim on the PPU is very narrow compared to norma 7x57 brass . i used a dremel to put a chamfer on the hornady shell holder, and 20 of the PPU brass will fit now, rather tightly , 20 won't . what a coincidence, i fired 2 boxes of 20 rounds each .

after doing some googling i found this is a common problem with S&B brass . PPU and S&B are both serbian made apparently . a solution i found is to use a 6.5x55 RCBS shell holder i had laying around as that case is slightly wider . my plan was to use norma for comp work at the range , PPU for hunting . i think some of my cases maybe full length sized too much as the cases may not have been sitting bottomed out in the shell holder , and actually sitting higher cause of the tight extractor groove . might have to junk the ones i've already formed due to headspace issues .

i've put this topic up , partly for feedback and opinions , partly to help or warn others reloading to watch for this problem . i don't really want to have to buy/use norma brass for hunting , as each lost case will have me crawling on the ground whingeing about the cost . "my precious, where are you my precious....."

[Wapiti]

Do you adjust your FLS die to size the case only just enough to chamber reliably with a bit of "feel", or do you set them up according to the instructions which says have the press cam-over when the shellholder is against the bottom of the die?

So the cases, being tighter in the shellholder, aren't actually bottoming in that listed shellholder?

Anyway I have struck that before, it was with a number of different makes of military cases. Was a pain.
FYI, I've never struck that with PPU cases in 223, 243, 270, 308, 30-30, 300WM, and 338 Lapua mag. In fact, I'd read what I'd call "snobs" bagging out the PPU brass as being cheap sh*t, whereas I've found it to be better than many big names, in consistency and brass life/quality.

[bigrich]

Do you adjust your FLS die to size the case only just enough to chamber reliably with a bit of "feel", or do you set them up according to the instructions which says have the press cam-over when the shellholder is against the bottom of the die?

So the cases, being tighter in the shellholder, aren't actually bottoming in that listed shellholder?

Anyway I have struck that before, it was with a number of different makes of military cases. Was a pain.
FYI, I've never struck that with PPU cases in 223, 243, 270, 308, 30-30, 300WM, and 338 Lapua mag. In fact, I'd read what I'd call "snobs" bagging out the PPU brass as being cheap sh*t, whereas I've found it to be better than many big names, in consistency and brass life/quality.

i have a hornady case comparator , which used with a set of digital callipers , measures shoulder setback . i used this recently to adjust my 222 dies when accuracy went "off" with that rifle . wear in my reloading press is the likely culprit , as it gets a lot of use
before that i used to FLS cases by feel on closing the bolt, and going by instructions on die setup . the shell holders are the correct listed ones for the 7x57 case , the extractor groove difference is visible to the norma 7x57 brass with the naked eye . PPU is good quality metallurgically . but past experience weighing cases shows a bit of variation . the most consistent cases are lapua, norma and ADI in the samples i've weighed, for my comp rifles i go for any edge i can get , for hunting rifles this is not as important to me. i actually like remington brass at it's price point . bottom line is this PPU brass i have doesn't fit shell holders correctly , and i may have to set up another set of dies and shell holder specifically if i want to use this brass . if this kind of problem happens to anyone it'll happen to me
i see this as a learning experience that will increase my knowledge

[Blr243]

Post them to me I’ll give the groove a tickle on my lathe

[Wapiti]

You know what, the ADI commercial 308 cases I use, from the Buffalo River and ADI factory sporting stuff is the most all-over-the-place for weights I've seen for ages. The PPU is very consistent.

Is it true that with the 7x57, the European standards of all the stuff you are referring to is not what the US has tried to adopt consistency and dimensionally wise? I have read that, your explanation does seem to back that up.

So good is the stuff I was referring to in fact, that I was astounded. For example, in the 338LM, the go-to stuff is always Norma or Lapua brand, so when I set about reloading the PPU 250gn Match ammo that I'd got for half the price at least of this stupidly-overpriced stuff, I checked all that as I'm fully into accuracy tricks like runout, neck grip, neck thickness consistency, volume etc. And the PPU was a match for the big names. Incredible.
Completely at odds with the BS I'd read on online expert opinion.
Same goes for the 308 and 300WM.
Can't talk for any other calibres, but anyone reading this, don't ever think the PPU components are at all marginal single-use stuff.

[bigrich]

You know what, the ADI commercial 308 cases I use, from the Buffalo River and ADI factory sporting stuff is the most all-over-the-place for weights I've seen for ages. The PPU is very consistent.

Is it true that with the 7x57, the European standards of all the stuff you are referring to is not what the US has tried to adopt consistency and dimensionally wise? I have read that, your explanation does seem to back that up.

So good is the stuff I was referring to in fact, that I was astounded. For example, in the 338LM, the go-to stuff is always Norma or Lapua brand, so when I set about reloading the PPU 250gn Match ammo that I'd got for half the price at least of this stupidly-overpriced stuff, I checked all that as I'm fully into accuracy tricks like runout, neck grip, neck thickness consistency, volume etc. And the PPU was a match for the big names. Incredible.
Completely at odds with the BS I'd read on online expert opinion.
Same goes for the 308 and 300WM.
Can't talk for any other calibres, but anyone reading this, don't ever think the PPU components are at all marginal single-use stuff.

ADI 308, 223 unprimed brass was up with the best of them for consistency in my samples . you may be onto something with European dimensions being different to sammi spec . will check this out further

[bigrich]

Post them to me I’ll give the groove a tickle on my lathe

thanks for the offer mate , i may take you up on that . i've pulled up and put the PPU brass on hold for the moment whilst i do some more research and explore all my options . cheers mate

[Blr243]

Cool , the vibe I get from ppu being good brass is I think regarding its malleability. The actual brass used , not necessarily its manufacturing process quality

[bigrich]

Cool , the vibe I get from ppu being good brass is I think regarding its malleability. The actual brass used , not necessarily its manufacturing process quality

i agree, that's my take on it . 7x57 is getting really hard to find brass for which is a shame as it's a great round , described by plenty of gun writers as one of the best balanced cartridges invented . but i suppose that's all relative to what your trying to achieve . i'll see how i go getting dies and stuff sorted , i appreciate your offer of tweaking the cases on a lathe , but i wouldn't want to trouble you if i can find a easier solution . hope your stay out bush finishes well , keep us updated .cheers mate .

[Wapiti]

Yesterday I was mucking around with a 300WM hunting rifle, started with some 150gn Sierra's... using some once-fired PPU brass. Anyway I neck sized them first, them went about doing the things I always do, deburr necks and inner flash holes, batch weigh them.
Takes no time at all. What I did notice was how consistent in every respect they are..

I have two 300mag target-type rifles(no saying the "S" word) so I've got stashes of Norma, Nosler and Lapua for those, so I compared those briefly, and there's nothing in it whatsoever.
The bags of new PPU 300 and 308 brass I got sent out have the necks deburred just the same as the above big $$$ brands above too, in the bag. I'm impressed.
Especially seeing the ridiculously cheap prices I paid.
And, the PPU 308 stuff has been fired and FLS at least half a dozen times in an autoloader here, and that's torturous compared to bolt guns.

I bother putting this up for the budget conscious shooters out there, all the calibres I mentioned a few posts ago in PPU brass are performing and lasting just as well as brands 3x the price. So don't be discouraged from using it.
The factory loaded ammo, well each rifle is different, some love it, some hate it (small groups wise) but for hunting, and for the brass itself afterwards, you're ahead.

[bigrich]

Yesterday I was mucking around with a 300WM hunting rifle, started with some 150gn Sierra's... using some once-fired PPU brass. Anyway I neck sized them first, them went about doing the things I always do, deburr necks and inner flash holes, batch weigh them.
Takes no time at all. What I did notice was how consistent in every respect they are..

I have two 300mag target-type rifles(no saying the "S" word) so I've got stashes of Norma, Nosler and Lapua for those, so I compared those briefly, and there's nothing in it whatsoever.
The bags of new PPU 300 and 308 brass I got sent out have the necks deburred just the same as the above big $$$ brands above too, in the bag. I'm impressed.
Especially seeing the ridiculously cheap prices I paid.
And, the PPU 308 stuff has been fired and FLS at least half a dozen times in an autoloader here, and that's torturous compared to bolt guns.

I bother putting this up for the budget conscious shooters out there, all the calibres I mentioned a few posts ago in PPU brass are performing and lasting just as well as brands 3x the price. So don't be discouraged from using it.
The factory loaded ammo, well each rifle is different, some love it, some hate it (small groups wise) but for hunting, and for the brass itself afterwards, you're ahead.

great to hear your brass is up to spec and giving you no troubles . my intention was to use my 7x57 PPU brass for hunting loads , but the overly tight extractor groove has thrown a spanner in my works . as with any manufactured item there is the possibility of a bad batch , or maybe it was monday at the PPU factory and vlad or igor had a big night on the vodka the night before
i've put the idea on the backburner for the moment and i'll concentrate on the norma brass for range work . i'll come back to the PPU with a fresh outlook at a later date . wish remington was still making 7x57 brass . my reliable 308 tikka will serve hunting duties as always in the meantime

[Wapiti]

Have a look around the net regarding the different standards in those groove dimensions, I did read somewhere once that certain calibres in European brass could suffer issues like that in US SAAMI spec dimensional gear meant for handloading. I.e fitting into some shellhoders.
Why these specs are/were different, buggers me.
These shellholders do also vary dimensionally, something I've found out too.
But the different rim groove specs always worked through all brands of rifles and action types, so no problems whatsoever.

Years ago, back when gunshows really were worth going to, I bought crates of 7.62x51 once fired brass from all over the world.
I used it for bush shooting for the last few years on the farm solely for pest control stuff, letting the shells fly off into the bush. That was the intention of taking the trouble of fixing the crimps on the primer pockets and otherwise pretty inconsistent brass... Almost free. Back then I could also get 250-packs of the RWS 5.5mm military primers too, not now. I've run out.

Anyway, point of that is, so much of the European 7.62 brass would not fit into standard US spec shellholders, too tight.
Shellholders are cheap as chips, especially Lee ones - I just modified an extra one to do this job, and colour-coded it red with a permanant marker.
You don't need a mill, take a bit of care and use your Dremel with a stone. Don't play with the cases, why do that.
Just keep them separate from your range shells, as one always does. So no issues now.

[bigrich]

Have a look around the net regarding the different standards in those groove dimensions, I did read somewhere once that certain calibres in European brass could suffer issues like that in US SAAMI spec dimensional gear meant for handloading. I.e fitting into some shellhoders.
Why these specs are/were different, buggers me.
These shellholders do also vary dimensionally, something I've found out too.
But the different rim groove specs always worked through all brands of rifles and action types, so no problems whatsoever.

Years ago, back when gunshows really were worth going to, I bought crates of 7.62x51 once fired brass from all over the world.
I used it for bush shooting for the last few years on the farm solely for pest control stuff, letting the shells fly off into the bush. That was the intention of taking the trouble of fixing the crimps on the primer pockets and otherwise pretty inconsistent brass... Almost free. Back then I could also get 250-packs of the RWS 5.5mm military primers too, not now. I've run out.

Anyway, point of that is, so much of the European 7.62 brass would not fit into standard US spec shellholders, too tight.
Shellholders are cheap as chips, especially Lee ones - I just modified an extra one to do this job, and colour-coded it red with a permanant marker.
You don't need a mill, take a bit of care and use your Dremel with a stone. Don't play with the cases, why do that.
Just keep them separate from your range shells, as one always does. So no issues now.

yeah , already dremeled a hornady shell holder to fit, but there's variation in the tightness of the groove between 2 fired boxes , also found that a 6.5x55 shell holder will fit fine , although it's a little loose . i'm thinking the FLS die should centre the brass okay though. i'm thinking i'll get another cheap die set and have one for the norma brass, and one set for the PPU . keeps things in a isolated controlled state with any irregularities between the two brands . bit OCD ? , yeah probably , but that's me

[Wapiti]

You do you, Rich. That's what counts.