PPU brass issues

[bigrich]

hey fellas , i've had a funny thing happen to me when i've gone to reload my ruger m77 i recently had re barrelled into 7x57 . bought some 173gn PPU 7x57 factory ammo for sight in and to bed the new barrel in . went to resize and the rim won't fit in a standard shell holder , hornady #1 and RCBS #3 . the groove in front of the rim on the PPU is very narrow compared to norma 7x57 brass . i used a dremel to put a chamfer on the hornady shell holder, and 20 of the PPU brass will fit now, rather tightly , 20 won't . what a coincidence, i fired 2 boxes of 20 rounds each .

after doing some googling i found this is a common problem with S&B brass . PPU and S&B are both serbian made apparently . a solution i found is to use a 6.5x55 RCBS shell holder i had laying around as that case is slightly wider . my plan was to use norma for comp work at the range , PPU for hunting . i think some of my cases maybe full length sized too much as the cases may not have been sitting bottomed out in the shell holder , and actually sitting higher cause of the tight extractor groove . might have to junk the ones i've already formed due to headspace issues .

i've put this topic up , partly for feedback and opinions , partly to help or warn others reloading to watch for this problem . i don't really want to have to buy/use norma brass for hunting , as each lost case will have me crawling on the ground whingeing about the cost . "my precious, where are you my precious....."

[Wapiti]

Do you adjust your FLS die to size the case only just enough to chamber reliably with a bit of "feel", or do you set them up according to the instructions which says have the press cam-over when the shellholder is against the bottom of the die?

So the cases, being tighter in the shellholder, aren't actually bottoming in that listed shellholder?

Anyway I have struck that before, it was with a number of different makes of military cases. Was a pain.
FYI, I've never struck that with PPU cases in 223, 243, 270, 308, 30-30, 300WM, and 338 Lapua mag. In fact, I'd read what I'd call "snobs" bagging out the PPU brass as being cheap sh*t, whereas I've found it to be better than many big names, in consistency and brass life/quality.

[bigrich]

Do you adjust your FLS die to size the case only just enough to chamber reliably with a bit of "feel", or do you set them up according to the instructions which says have the press cam-over when the shellholder is against the bottom of the die?

So the cases, being tighter in the shellholder, aren't actually bottoming in that listed shellholder?

Anyway I have struck that before, it was with a number of different makes of military cases. Was a pain.
FYI, I've never struck that with PPU cases in 223, 243, 270, 308, 30-30, 300WM, and 338 Lapua mag. In fact, I'd read what I'd call "snobs" bagging out the PPU brass as being cheap sh*t, whereas I've found it to be better than many big names, in consistency and brass life/quality.

i have a hornady case comparator , which used with a set of digital callipers , measures shoulder setback . i used this recently to adjust my 222 dies when accuracy went "off" with that rifle . wear in my reloading press is the likely culprit , as it gets a lot of use
before that i used to FLS cases by feel on closing the bolt, and going by instructions on die setup . the shell holders are the correct listed ones for the 7x57 case , the extractor groove difference is visible to the norma 7x57 brass with the naked eye . PPU is good quality metallurgically . but past experience weighing cases shows a bit of variation . the most consistent cases are lapua, norma and ADI in the samples i've weighed, for my comp rifles i go for any edge i can get , for hunting rifles this is not as important to me. i actually like remington brass at it's price point . bottom line is this PPU brass i have doesn't fit shell holders correctly , and i may have to set up another set of dies and shell holder specifically if i want to use this brass . if this kind of problem happens to anyone it'll happen to me
i see this as a learning experience that will increase my knowledge

[Blr243]

Post them to me I’ll give the groove a tickle on my lathe

[Wapiti]

You know what, the ADI commercial 308 cases I use, from the Buffalo River and ADI factory sporting stuff is the most all-over-the-place for weights I've seen for ages. The PPU is very consistent.

Is it true that with the 7x57, the European standards of all the stuff you are referring to is not what the US has tried to adopt consistency and dimensionally wise? I have read that, your explanation does seem to back that up.

So good is the stuff I was referring to in fact, that I was astounded. For example, in the 338LM, the go-to stuff is always Norma or Lapua brand, so when I set about reloading the PPU 250gn Match ammo that I'd got for half the price at least of this stupidly-overpriced stuff, I checked all that as I'm fully into accuracy tricks like runout, neck grip, neck thickness consistency, volume etc. And the PPU was a match for the big names. Incredible.
Completely at odds with the BS I'd read on online expert opinion.
Same goes for the 308 and 300WM.
Can't talk for any other calibres, but anyone reading this, don't ever think the PPU components are at all marginal single-use stuff.

[bigrich]

You know what, the ADI commercial 308 cases I use, from the Buffalo River and ADI factory sporting stuff is the most all-over-the-place for weights I've seen for ages. The PPU is very consistent.

Is it true that with the 7x57, the European standards of all the stuff you are referring to is not what the US has tried to adopt consistency and dimensionally wise? I have read that, your explanation does seem to back that up.

So good is the stuff I was referring to in fact, that I was astounded. For example, in the 338LM, the go-to stuff is always Norma or Lapua brand, so when I set about reloading the PPU 250gn Match ammo that I'd got for half the price at least of this stupidly-overpriced stuff, I checked all that as I'm fully into accuracy tricks like runout, neck grip, neck thickness consistency, volume etc. And the PPU was a match for the big names. Incredible.
Completely at odds with the BS I'd read on online expert opinion.
Same goes for the 308 and 300WM.
Can't talk for any other calibres, but anyone reading this, don't ever think the PPU components are at all marginal single-use stuff.

ADI 308, 223 unprimed brass was up with the best of them for consistency in my samples . you may be onto something with European dimensions being different to sammi spec . will check this out further

[bigrich]

Post them to me I’ll give the groove a tickle on my lathe

thanks for the offer mate , i may take you up on that . i've pulled up and put the PPU brass on hold for the moment whilst i do some more research and explore all my options . cheers mate

[Blr243]

Cool , the vibe I get from ppu being good brass is I think regarding its malleability. The actual brass used , not necessarily its manufacturing process quality

[bigrich]

Cool , the vibe I get from ppu being good brass is I think regarding its malleability. The actual brass used , not necessarily its manufacturing process quality

i agree, that's my take on it . 7x57 is getting really hard to find brass for which is a shame as it's a great round , described by plenty of gun writers as one of the best balanced cartridges invented . but i suppose that's all relative to what your trying to achieve . i'll see how i go getting dies and stuff sorted , i appreciate your offer of tweaking the cases on a lathe , but i wouldn't want to trouble you if i can find a easier solution . hope your stay out bush finishes well , keep us updated .cheers mate .

[Wapiti]

Yesterday I was mucking around with a 300WM hunting rifle, started with some 150gn Sierra's... using some once-fired PPU brass. Anyway I neck sized them first, them went about doing the things I always do, deburr necks and inner flash holes, batch weigh them.
Takes no time at all. What I did notice was how consistent in every respect they are..

I have two 300mag target-type rifles(no saying the "S" word) so I've got stashes of Norma, Nosler and Lapua for those, so I compared those briefly, and there's nothing in it whatsoever.
The bags of new PPU 300 and 308 brass I got sent out have the necks deburred just the same as the above big $$$ brands above too, in the bag. I'm impressed.
Especially seeing the ridiculously cheap prices I paid.
And, the PPU 308 stuff has been fired and FLS at least half a dozen times in an autoloader here, and that's torturous compared to bolt guns.

I bother putting this up for the budget conscious shooters out there, all the calibres I mentioned a few posts ago in PPU brass are performing and lasting just as well as brands 3x the price. So don't be discouraged from using it.
The factory loaded ammo, well each rifle is different, some love it, some hate it (small groups wise) but for hunting, and for the brass itself afterwards, you're ahead.

[bigrich]

Yesterday I was mucking around with a 300WM hunting rifle, started with some 150gn Sierra's... using some once-fired PPU brass. Anyway I neck sized them first, them went about doing the things I always do, deburr necks and inner flash holes, batch weigh them.
Takes no time at all. What I did notice was how consistent in every respect they are..

I have two 300mag target-type rifles(no saying the "S" word) so I've got stashes of Norma, Nosler and Lapua for those, so I compared those briefly, and there's nothing in it whatsoever.
The bags of new PPU 300 and 308 brass I got sent out have the necks deburred just the same as the above big $$$ brands above too, in the bag. I'm impressed.
Especially seeing the ridiculously cheap prices I paid.
And, the PPU 308 stuff has been fired and FLS at least half a dozen times in an autoloader here, and that's torturous compared to bolt guns.

I bother putting this up for the budget conscious shooters out there, all the calibres I mentioned a few posts ago in PPU brass are performing and lasting just as well as brands 3x the price. So don't be discouraged from using it.
The factory loaded ammo, well each rifle is different, some love it, some hate it (small groups wise) but for hunting, and for the brass itself afterwards, you're ahead.

great to hear your brass is up to spec and giving you no troubles . my intention was to use my 7x57 PPU brass for hunting loads , but the overly tight extractor groove has thrown a spanner in my works . as with any manufactured item there is the possibility of a bad batch , or maybe it was monday at the PPU factory and vlad or igor had a big night on the vodka the night before
i've put the idea on the backburner for the moment and i'll concentrate on the norma brass for range work . i'll come back to the PPU with a fresh outlook at a later date . wish remington was still making 7x57 brass . my reliable 308 tikka will serve hunting duties as always in the meantime

[Wapiti]

Have a look around the net regarding the different standards in those groove dimensions, I did read somewhere once that certain calibres in European brass could suffer issues like that in US SAAMI spec dimensional gear meant for handloading. I.e fitting into some shellhoders.
Why these specs are/were different, buggers me.
These shellholders do also vary dimensionally, something I've found out too.
But the different rim groove specs always worked through all brands of rifles and action types, so no problems whatsoever.

Years ago, back when gunshows really were worth going to, I bought crates of 7.62x51 once fired brass from all over the world.
I used it for bush shooting for the last few years on the farm solely for pest control stuff, letting the shells fly off into the bush. That was the intention of taking the trouble of fixing the crimps on the primer pockets and otherwise pretty inconsistent brass... Almost free. Back then I could also get 250-packs of the RWS 5.5mm military primers too, not now. I've run out.

Anyway, point of that is, so much of the European 7.62 brass would not fit into standard US spec shellholders, too tight.
Shellholders are cheap as chips, especially Lee ones - I just modified an extra one to do this job, and colour-coded it red with a permanant marker.
You don't need a mill, take a bit of care and use your Dremel with a stone. Don't play with the cases, why do that.
Just keep them separate from your range shells, as one always does. So no issues now.

[bigrich]

Have a look around the net regarding the different standards in those groove dimensions, I did read somewhere once that certain calibres in European brass could suffer issues like that in US SAAMI spec dimensional gear meant for handloading. I.e fitting into some shellhoders.
Why these specs are/were different, buggers me.
These shellholders do also vary dimensionally, something I've found out too.
But the different rim groove specs always worked through all brands of rifles and action types, so no problems whatsoever.

Years ago, back when gunshows really were worth going to, I bought crates of 7.62x51 once fired brass from all over the world.
I used it for bush shooting for the last few years on the farm solely for pest control stuff, letting the shells fly off into the bush. That was the intention of taking the trouble of fixing the crimps on the primer pockets and otherwise pretty inconsistent brass... Almost free. Back then I could also get 250-packs of the RWS 5.5mm military primers too, not now. I've run out.

Anyway, point of that is, so much of the European 7.62 brass would not fit into standard US spec shellholders, too tight.
Shellholders are cheap as chips, especially Lee ones - I just modified an extra one to do this job, and colour-coded it red with a permanant marker.
You don't need a mill, take a bit of care and use your Dremel with a stone. Don't play with the cases, why do that.
Just keep them separate from your range shells, as one always does. So no issues now.

yeah , already dremeled a hornady shell holder to fit, but there's variation in the tightness of the groove between 2 fired boxes , also found that a 6.5x55 shell holder will fit fine , although it's a little loose . i'm thinking the FLS die should centre the brass okay though. i'm thinking i'll get another cheap die set and have one for the norma brass, and one set for the PPU . keeps things in a isolated controlled state with any irregularities between the two brands . bit OCD ? , yeah probably , but that's me

[Wapiti]

You do you, Rich. That's what counts.

[jovialjosie2002]

When I first started reloading 7x57mm, I had some Norma brass, the shell holder sold with the dies worked fine. However, for Geco and PPU brass, I had to buy a new shell holder. European brass is a slightly different size to USA brass. It may have something to do with imperial vs metric system.

[Wapiti]

When I first started reloading 7x57mm, I had some Norma brass, the shell holder sold with the dies worked fine. However, for Geco and PPU brass, I had to buy a new shell holder. European brass is a slightly different size to USA brass. It may have something to do with imperial vs metric system.

Spot on mate. It aint anything to do with PPU brass quality.

I've opened a few bags of PPU 308 over the last few days, and noticed to my appreciation that it's nicely chamfered inside and out from the bag, and when I check if there's a burr on the inside of the case at the punched-in primer pocket, it's clean and flat.
Can't say the same from the yank stuff I've used the last few years, it is all over the shop and burrs and dents everywhere. So much for all the online slagging off of PPU.

In fact I've tried it in a few 308 168 and 175gn long distance loads in my DTA SRS lately in some darkening late afternoon plate ringing, and it easily rivals Norma for case capacity consistency and prep touches. Primer pockets are so uniformly consistent too.

[Willie]

Have reloaded with PPU in 9mm in the past. No issues, even after a few reloads.

[Fester]

It sounds like PPU can be good or bad.
I once picked up some once-fired cases, but saw the old, way off-centre flash holes and thought that if they can't get that right, what else do they get wrong.
I don't keep any Win cases, as I classify their modern cases as not fit to reload.
S@B has too much extra work with the tight primer pockets.

It seems lots of Yank companies just outsource their brass buying and it shows with Hrdy, which I liked as it seemed soft and workable.
After doing some checks, I found the cheap blue box Federal ammo cases to be more consistent.

I avoided anything PPU after a couple of rifles exploded, as we all know they will just keep selling the faulty batches, and it's not just one batch of suspect powder as a few different cals had the same corrosion that starts from the inside of the case and looks like white powder.
You won't see it unless it gets right through to the outside, more likely the case, just explodes.
There is a known name to this corrosion, but I don't remember it.
Blokes likely bought bulk packs and kept using them for years. The corrosion must have kept growing and eating the case wall thinner.
There is a brand of shotty ammo that is always about the cheapest, blue color is all I remember, but a few sepo guns also blew up so I just don't touch it.

[Wapiti]

Explosions with PPU brass? WTF?

Thank goodness the big stash of 338 Lapua brass I got from the incredibly good deal I got a while ago. The cases matched up against the incredibly expensive Lapua and Norma brass I also use and sell grandmas to get..
In fact the loaded PPU ammo in that calibre cost the same each as ONE empty case of the other brands and was loaded with a match bullet and shoots 2950fps which is unreal. No pressure signs, brass incredibly consistent.
I reckon people spin old wives tales and are brand snobs just to justify others having good experiences with less-expensive components.
Bit harsh? I say, show me the pics or it's brushed off as just more untruths.

[Fester]

You could sift through the big hunting forum and find detailed photos.
It may have been Mozzie, from memory who blew up his VERY well worn Tikka 9.3 .
He is a big Qld station manager that shoots thousands of critters.
The corrosion issue is known about and has a name, but I wouldn't know half of what those blokes have long forgotten.

Other blokes started pulling rounds and several found the white powder eating the cases.
Some suspect a batch of powder started it, and it seems to be in big cals like the 9.3x64

It was a huge thread titled something like My 9.3 or the like. He must have loaded and shot heaps of big critters with just about every projy available .

Even if I could be bothered, I don't even know how to post pics here.

[bigrich]

i've had off centre primer holes in S&B brass , snapped de-capping pins in FLS dies before i took a look at a couple of cases and it was obvious to the naked eye . i bought some old "highland" (PPU) 303 ammo from a well known brisbane guns shop that ruptured cases. after firing five, i took the ammo back for a full refund . i also took a fired 303 remington case, as i switched to that , and my rebarreled 303 martini to show it wasn't the gun/chambers fault. never had a problem with rem brass in that rifle after multiple firings. as another member posted above , European 7x57 rounds must be made to different specs as you need a different shell holder to reload it , norma 7x57 you don't . norma must be sammi spec with its rim and extractor groove dimensions . my ruger m77 in 7x57 needed work to the extractor as i had ejection issues after using the PPU brass . this could have easily have occurred using S&B brass. my rifle with norma brass feeds and ejects flawlessly with norma, i won't be using any other 7x57 brass in this rifle from now on . would this issue have occurred with the PPU 7x57 brass in a mauser 98 ? probably not as it was designed for the 7x57 and it's euro specs.

these have been my first hand experiences , nothing manufactured has a iron bound guarantee to be free from faults . part of the 35 whelen head space issue "myth" cause of it's small case shoulder, can be traced back to a batch of rifles by a american maker that had the chambers incorrectly headspaced and rumored factory ammo that was not to correct dimensions . at least that's according to some very knowledgeable american forum members that i found out are american gun writers . taken with a grain of salt of coarse..

i use and reload ADI brass in my 308 and 223 "working rifles" . it's very consistent, good quality, and if i lose any out bush it's reasonably priced and replaceable . in my safe pets i use in comps at the range i use good quality brass in rifles like lapua my 222 . i rotate batches , one is on it's 11th firing, tight primer pockets and not a single issue with it . i anneal the necks after every 3rd firing with a "ugly annealer" , which is a great bit of gear . i don't mind paying extra for quality brass that's good a high grade of QC and is made from good quality metal. use what you want , but in some circumstances you get what you pay for .

if anyone in the logan, ipswich, brisabane area with a 7x57 is looking for some factory PPU 7x57 loaded ammo, i have some , it doesn't fit in a standard shell holder, ( it fitted in 6.5x55 shell holder) cause my ruger m77 rifle doesn't like it . you must present a firearms license of coarse. anyone interested PM me . cheers

[Jorlcrin]

My 2 cents...

I bought 300 Highland(PPU) 150gn SP factory ammo with my first .308win in 2012; wasnt very consistent stuff to use.
When I pulled the last 20 rounds in frustration, I found what looked to be different powder in a number of them.
They worked fine for shots where I could've used something smaller, but for distance shots, these were all over the place.
Went on to buy some 500 Lapua brass, and it was awesome in it's finish and consistency .
Also went through a few hundred Hornady Match rounds, as well as about a thousand Federal 130gn HP rounds(the ones with the Aussie flag on the box).

HOWEVER, the PPU brass turned out to be really good, when I got around to cleaning it up, trimmed it, and massaged it into shape.
I found I needed to spend more time on it than other brands of brass, but it's been worth it.
By the time I had worked it over thoroughly, I'd rate the PPU brass as being similar quality of metal to my Lapua or Norma brass.
Still have a couple of hundred of the PPU brass as a result; it's stood up well to multiple reloads.

Unlike the Federal brass, which lasts a few reloads, before cracks start appearing.
Still got about 1000 of the federal brass, but I dont expect much more than a few reloads remain in any of it.
I dont anneal, but I dont see signs that the amount I'm shooting(and amount of brass I have on hand), warrants annealing.
Remington and S&B are 2 brands I've found not worth reloading; some people here have found Remington to work really well for their situation.
The S&B often had primer flash-holes drilled off-center.

These days, I've found the ADI brass to be the best brass (for me) in terms of availability, affordability and consistency.
I regularly buy cans of the loaded ADI .223 ammo, and have a growing pile of spent brass to process for myself, (or share with our roo-shooter).
As part of my QC, I weigh my reloaded ammo individually as they go into the box, and tally the result.
Over time, I've found the ADI brass has some of the lowest spread of weight in my reloaded rounds.
And the often-reloaded PPU brass isnt far behind.
I'd certainly rate PPU brass as being better quality metal than the stuff produced by Hornady, Winchester, S&B, Federal and Remington.
But I did find it needed more work to initially massage into shape.

Thats been my journey; no doubt others have walked a different path.