Not all dies are the same.

[Wapiti]

I was reloading some 243 ammo the other week, and noticed that the projectiles were being seated very inconsistently - on an angle I could actually see.
WTF?
This is not acceptable if you want the best from your rifle-ammo combination.

This was with new cases, FLS before first loading to make sure they were straight. I resized them little by little until they grew in length and would not chamber, then slowly kept adjusting the die till the shoulder bumped back just enough to allow a small feel when closing the bolt.
Then I chamfered the case mouths, and the inside of the flash holes.
they were all dead straight, including the neck alignment with the body.

So what was going on?
I loaded both 70gn varminters, and 75gn TNT's. Both are flat base.
I knew there was something wrong with these dies, either in their design or just a fault, because I kind of know what I'm doing.
So I ordered some more dies to replace this brand. And to pull both apart to see if "Oils aint Oils, Sol."

both dies compared.jpg (694 KiB) Viewed 177 times

\Dies that I made the bent ammo with on the left ($90), new arrivals on the right ($180).

[Wapiti]

You can see the misalignment without measuring equipment. Piss poor.

noticeably bent.jpg (665.04 KiB) Viewed 176 times

[Wapiti]

So here's the construction/design of the offending seating die.
The guide that aligns the projectile straight couldn't possibly align the projectile at all - it floats on the top adjustment part of the die and is held in from falling out the bottom by a ring left in the top when the hole for the thread was drilled. It just flops around, left, right, tips sideways whatever.
It's not part of the top of the die, it's a steel rod and the knurled part you adjust is aluminium.
Here, you can see how much it can tip sideways.

L die 1.jpg (675.98 KiB) Viewed 174 times

From the top, sitting in the adjustment section, you can see how it can move about.

L die 2.jpg (695.74 KiB) Viewed 174 times

Here it is in bits.
Very simple, and I can see why this brand is so much cheaper that a fully machined steel die.

L die 3.jpg (695.01 KiB) Viewed 174 times

[Wapiti]

The new die, a different brand but just a standard die (NOT a benchrest or precision die) pulled apart.
You can see that the bullet seating stem is one piece hardened steel, that cannot tip off centre as it is a part of the top of the die.
It also doesn't have an O-ring to stop it going out of adjustment that can cause more wobble between the alloy threads and the steel die body like the other cheaper die, this one has threads with NO play and a lock ring to stop any sideways movement or loosening.
The cartridge case is also a nice slip-in fit in the die with very little sideways movement to allow any misalignment from not being centred in the shellholder, either. Unlike the other brand.
It cannot seat off-centre.

R die1.jpg (688.44 KiB) Viewed 174 times

R die2.jpg (688.41 KiB) Viewed 174 times

[Wapiti]

The worst run-out was from seating flat-base bullets.
By the design of the cheaper die, the huge loose tolerances allow the projectile to tip sideways when being pushed in, even with a good chamfer.
Boat-tail bullets centred quite well, as they have that "cone" to start them in straighter.

This was the run-out right at the neck. Just back from the tip, some of these loaded rounds had over 20 thou runout.
You just will not get the best from your work using a die like the one that caused the issues.
I know some people will say, "My XXXX dies are great". Yep.

Lee die runout.jpg (682.71 KiB) Viewed 172 times

A boat-tail bullet starts reasonably straight in the cheaper dies, because it has more chance of centering itself as it starts to seat.

90gn bullets.jpg (684.4 KiB) Viewed 172 times

To me, someone who's been involved in the manufacturing sector, can see why the second set of dies costs more. They are a more complex design with more machining and manufacturing steps, with more expensive materials used. And the lock design is also superior.
Again, you get what you pay for, and if the results you get with these more economical dies is all you need, that's great.

[GQshayne]

I do not have many dies, and have had a mix of mainly RCBS and Lyman. I bought some Lee dies a while back and they are certainly cheaper and do look a bit that way. Last lot I bought were Hornady, and they are very nicely made.

Now you will find out if your accuracy returns.

[bladeracer]

So here's the construction/design of the offending seating die.
The guide that aligns the projectile straight couldn't possibly align the projectile at all - it floats on the top adjustment part of the die and is held in from falling out the bottom by a ring left in the top when the hole for the thread was drilled. It just flops around, left, right, tips sideways whatever.
It's not part of the top of the die, it's a steel rod and the knurled part you adjust is aluminium.
Here, you can see how much it can tip sideways.

It can't move anywhere near that much while it's in the die though?

[straightshooter]

You can see the misalignment without measuring equipment. Piss poor.

noticeably bent.jpg

It could be a reflection or some other optical artifact but the case mouth in the picture has the appearance of having been crimped with a projectile that doesn't have a cannelure. Further the crimp doesn't appear to be perpendicular to longitudinal axis of the case.

[Jorlcrin]

You can see the misalignment without measuring equipment. Piss poor.

noticeably bent.jpg

It could be a reflection or some other optical artifact but the case mouth in the picture has the appearance of having been crimped with a projectile that doesn't have a cannelure. Further the crimp doesn't appear to be perpendicular to longitudinal axis of the case.

Looking at that brands website, the "Easy-Adjust Dead Length" seating dies came in either Seater, or Seater/Crimp dies.
The photo of the finished round with the lean, does look to have been crimped.
Why that follower would be able to be flop around like that, has me scratching my head.

I note they dont list them for sale any more; only the Precision Micrometer seating rifle dies.

Never been thrilled with this brand of dies; dont like the adjustment on their FL/Decap dies, though I have a dedicated de-cap die these days.
I've had to use them at times through the years, but whenever I've been able to, I've moved on to either Redding or Forster dies.
Looking at the pics posted, I'd be struggling to want to ever buy any of their seating dies; even if I needed them.

[Wapiti]

You can see the misalignment without measuring equipment. Piss poor.

noticeably bent.jpg

It could be a reflection or some other optical artifact but the case mouth in the picture has the appearance of having been crimped with a projectile that doesn't have a cannelure. Further the crimp doesn't appear to be perpendicular to longitudinal axis of the case.

Appreciate the replies and the attention to details of you blokes.
The crimp is definitely perpendicular to the centreline axis of the case, as you mention there is optical aberration in the photo. There always is and there's no way around that.
This is why I used the v-block and dial indicator check and put that up. The pic definitely shows misalignment, but mechanically measuring the results give definitive numbers, not the ability of a phone pic to match what your eyes see.
Numbers from measuring equipment do not lie.

If anyone's got any criticisms of the crimp, it was done with a Lee die also, used exactly as intended. The huge clearance of this cheap die around the loaded round as it enters also means slop in the shellholder or a cartridge flopping about as it goes up and in means it also will be angled to the degree of the misalignment of design tolerances.

That crimp was an experiment I also did afterwards.
I did it to a few to try something out which I will explain below. I didn't because the thread was getting too long but because a few have spotted it I will.
10/10 spotting it by the way, I did wonder if anyone would.

Because the Lee die forced the projectile into the case on an angle, the projectile is a floppy fit on one plane, example 6 to 12 o'clock. It stretched the neck loose in one plane.

I was faced with having to pull 50 handloads of 70gn and 50 of 75gn, so I tried giving a couple in a roll in V-Blocks and crimping a few in place to try this as an experiment. To see if they could be brought to a respectable alignment dimension and tightened up, so be used and not all be pulled.
That "respectable alignment dimension" was something I'd decide later.
It didn't work, because the neck has been pulled over from the join where it meets the shoulder.

The crimp was only an attempt to get the loads to a stage that they might survive the bolt pushing a loose bullet out of a box mag, up the feed ramp and into a chamber and stay in the neck.
The cartridge I pulled from the MTM box happened to be a crimped experiment one of the few, and I wasn't going to go back to the shop to take a pic of one I hadn't crimped after shutting up the workshop for the day.

I also considered using a body die for 5 seconds, but a body die doesn't touch the necks.

So again good work spotting this, but actually that cartridge is straighter than most of the 95 other ones that haven't been crimped.

I have this brand of dies in 223, 243, and 30-30 and bought them because I didn't see the need to buy better engineered dies for rifles in calibres I hardly use. But now I've seen the degree of poor tolerance stacking that this cheaper design makes when using them the only way they can be used, they are all being replaced.

This isn't a witch hunt against one brand, or pushing another I think is better.
I take the effort to put up info someone can use that mightn't otherwise think it's relevant or important to them and what their expectations personally are.
Handloading to me, isn't about just assembling a heap of bits together, it's about doing it so the result compliments the expectations I have in the whole package of rifle and scope.
When people say to me that "dies are dies, Sol" well, if you feel better convincing yourself that, then that's all that matters. They'll all go bang.

[Wapiti]

Actually, this misalignment in handloaded ammo from these cheaply-made dies must be known fairly well out there by those who chase better precision.

Hornady, amongst others, make a tool to both measure and straighten somewhat, bent cartridges from sloppy dies.
Hornady makes one of the more economical ones.

https://q-store.com.au/products/hornady ... icity-tool

What I have learned though, is why buy stuff that makes this kind of ammo, then have to spend $400 bucks and even more precious time correcting it and making it to an acceptable standard.
When spending $90 more on dies that don't do this and not having to spend more time correcting it. Which in itself is bodgy enough.

Obviously this is a real thing, for a reloading tool maker to have another thing to buy to fix problems that shouldn't occur in the first place.
My OP shows why this happens, and that you don't have to accept it.

[Fester]

I used a few brands of std type die sets depending on what the shops had in stock.
Then, as rifles were bought, I just went with cheaper Lee for 2 cals.
As I shot and loaded a lot, the full-length sizing dies both sort of wore out.
They did the scoring thing but polishing them out again never permanently fixed them, like with the other brands.
Also tried the collet neck sizing for a couple of years; it sure is convenient, and said to be accurate.
I didn't realize the collet part needed lube and stuffed one of those, needing replacement.

Found a shop with those 2 die std Redding kits for about $95 and when I opened the box in the shop for a peek, I could instantly see the superior quality and design compared to other dies.
I replaced my 30-30 Lee set as well, and will do all future cals.

I rated RCBS, but these Reddings are it for me; never an issue replacing or removing a de-capping pin if needed.
They just got it all right.

I also found I had to tighten the Lee dies so tightly to clamp the pin tight enough to not move that the threads all gauged.
All the dies did the same.

Even my de-capping die eventually died, so I went to Redding, from memory, and eventually repaired the Lee and set it up, just for those smaller flash hole cases that can be tight when new.

Lee are still good value for other stuff, like their factory crimping dies and the basic type hand trimmer cutters when only a few need trimming, I still use other stuff I don't remember that has stood up to high useage.

I just never found their sizing dies up to task, looks like that seater is even worse.

You can sort of see that the other brands are machined from a hard steel and treated to suit die-type applications.
I suspect the Lee dies are just something similar to a hard chrome coating.

I also suspect that the blokes that swear by them just don't do high-volume reloading.

I never throw the bad stuff out, and needed that Dirty-30 seater as other brands ran out of adjustment when I first tried those tipped FXT Hrdy pills without the extra case trimming recommended, whether it fixes the issue or not.
I never had the wonky seating issue, or missed it, if I did. I can't imagine that I would not have picked it up, as the most important job in reloading is inspection, inspection, and another inspection, something Winchester could start doing again lol

[ButchDDG41]

I too went the cheap 4 die sets when I started reloading, and after a time I got a Redding set and saw the obvious quality difference. I also noticed the cheaper ones getting surface rust on them after a year or so of owning them. Granted I live near the ocean and my loading gear is stored in my shed that was built from poles and corrugated iron back when Captain cook was an Able Seaman Cook and it only keeps the bulk of the weather out and is hardly the cleanest environment for storing precision equipment, but the Redding dies have yet to have any oxidisation and I have had them a while now.

This post has sparked my interest and I will check the run out on my 270 and 22-250 stuff I have loaded with the old cheap dies and see if I have the same problem as the OP.

[Fester]

Good to hear that the Reddings are also corrosion-resistant, and that a salt environment will test anything.

Looking at my other brand dies that were original and over a decade old now, the RCBS set look the most likely to suffer.
I have an old Lyman set but never really compared it under the magnifiers.

The RCBS set are .223 and likely the most highly used by far, so handled the most, and I don't tend to wipe them down with inox very often, or clean them as much as I should.
I must check if it is like a very fine surface rust, or just how the finish deteriorates over time.

It is no biggie, and likely why I have never bothered to inspect them, but I will, one day.
Likely when one is cleaned or needs a polish.

[Wapiti]

Redding make just the best stuff, that's all I'm going to buy from now on.

Think of it this way.
Imagine if you got a gunsmith to rebarrel a gun, and the bloke bored the chamber off-centre, or threaded the barrel off-centre or crooked. Or the receiever was cocked a little, on the p*ss and not square.
By only a few though down at the chamber end.
Imagine down at the muzzle, 22" away or whatever, how far that is out? If you knew, you'd go apesh*t.

But we all demand the best precision, a craftsman putting our gear together with no runout of off-line whatsoever, and most likely we gat that.

Then we go out and buy the cheapest reloading gear, and make cartridges that have the projectiles on the p*ss.
To shoot them in our gun that we all want precise and consistent.
We use those awful dies with expanders that yank the necks out-of-line, certainly inconsistently depending on exactly where the case head is sitting in the shell holder.
Or god help us, dies like what I unfortunately bought thinking, well i don't use them much, save some money, with seating stems floating around inside that can allow a tight bullet to tip wildly and out of alignment.
Then when you fire it, that off-centre bullet hits the rifling at 800mph and continues out the muzzle wobbling.
Making your precision groups bigger.
People say, maybe I'll change the primer, try a different powder or bullet - but it's the on-the-p*ss ammo.

Then they sell a tool to straighten wobbly reloads make with cheap gear, and you measure, find the high points, push the bullet over, check again. Loosen the bullet in the neck so your neck tension is wildly variable. Try again. Ooops, too far.
That tool is $400, but if you'd bought $400 Redding competition dies with inbuilt chambers to hold everything perfectly straight, you wouldn't have to even check them.
Yet people say, waste of money. All dies are the same. Not.

Horses for courses. If you are a Western Action shooter that sprays out cheap lead as fast as you can at short ranges, more precise dies are not needed at all.
But if you're a precision shooter, varmint shooter of small targets, or a paper range puncher, you are fighting the gear and will never beat it until you get rid of it.
But if you don't know what's doing it, you can't fix it.
Maybe, you don't care. But I'm not putting up with it, pushing sh*t uphill.
If I've made a few people think, then that's worth it.

[JDM9691]

So here's the construction/design of the offending seating die.
The guide that aligns the projectile straight couldn't possibly align the projectile at all - it floats on the top adjustment part of the die and is held in from falling out the bottom by a ring left in the top when the hole for the thread was drilled. It just flops around, left, right, tips sideways whatever.
It's not part of the top of the die, it's a steel rod and the knurled part you adjust is aluminium.
Here, you can see how much it can tip sideways.

L die 1.jpg

To be up front, I use the exact same Lee seating die, and have found it to make excellent ammunition, usually good for 2/3 MOA. Could it be better? Of course, but that's good enough accuracy for my needs. Never had a problem with concentricity, but I've only ever reloaded pointed tip boat tails, or flat base PSP.

The steel cylinder that contacts the projectile is designed to contact the centre of the meplat, and further force should push the base of the projectile against the perfectly aligned, chamfered and resized case mouth. The steel cylinder has enough clearance to 'float' and allow perfect alignment of the case mouth / projectile base, and further pressure should seat the projectile perfectly. It's important to note that the steel cylinder is not there to do any alignment - it's just there as floating part of the stopping mechanism.

Well, that's how I've found it works with pointed projectiles, anyway. The two pics of yours that show wonky seating both appear to have flat nosed (or possibly HP?) projectiles - either way there is a square edge at the tip of the projectile, and I'm guessing that this square edge grips the recessed edge of the steel cylinder instead of allowing it to centre, and further force pushes it in crooked. I think that you'd have better results with these type of projectiles if you reversed the steel cylinder around, so that the flat tip contacts the projectile instead of the recessed end (would probably put the adjustment out of range), or maybe drilling the recess a bit wider to allow the two surfaces to mate better. It wouldn't be hard to make another one specifically for these type of projectiles. If you wanted less play you could try some paper strips in between the steel cylinder and the aluminium adjuster.

Or probably easier to just keep using your new dies As you say, whatever works for you. Interesting observation anyway, I'll be sure to keep an eye on it if I switch to similar projectiles, but for now the Lee seating die is doing all I need it to.